Airbus SE (AIR) Earnings Call Transcript

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Airbus 9 Months 2024 Results Release Conference Call. I am Sharon, the operator for this conference. [Operator Instructions] At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to your host, Guillaume Faury, Thomas Toepfer and Helene Le Gorgeu. Please go ahead.

Thank you, Sharon, and good evening, ladies and gentlemen. This is the Airbus 9 Months 2024 Results Release Conference Call. Guillaume Faury, our CEO; and Thomas Toepfer, our CFO, will be presenting our results and answering your questions. This call is planned to last around 1 hour. This includes Q&A, which we will conduct after the presentation. This call is also webcast. It can be accessed via our homepage by clicking on the dedicated banner. Playback of this call will be accessible on the website, but there is no dedicated phone replay service. The supporting information package was published on our website earlier today. It includes the slides, which we will now take you through as well as the financial statements. Throughout this call, we will be making forward-looking statements. I invite you to refer to our safe harbor statement that appears in the presentation slides, which applies to this call as well. Please read it carefully. And now over to you, Guillaume.

Thank you, Helene, and hello, everyone, and thank you for joining us today for the 9 months results call. We're indeed here in Amsterdam with Thomas to run you through our results. Before we get there, as I said in the previous call, I'm sure you've already read our press release about the leadership decisions. And I guess you will have questions at a later stage, but let me share a few words about the topic. First, the Board of Directors has announced, as I said, has decided that they will propose to the shareholders the renewal of my mandate as Airbus CEO and Executive Member of the Board at the next AGM. So most of you know me by now and very committed to the company, very engaged, and I will continue to do so. I'm both honored and humbled by the decision of our Board of Directors that's obviously important for the company and for myself. Second, on Commercial Aircraft, we are announcing that Lars Wagner, who is the CEO of MTU Aero Engines, will join us at the end of his current mandate, that will be completed by end of next year, by end of 2025 and join us so beginning of 2026 to then succeed Christian Scherer, who is today the CEO of Commercial Aircraft at Airbus. And I insist in saying that both Christian and I are very excited with the perspective of Lars joining and Lars succeeding Christian because we consider Lars is one of the very best leaders that we have in our industry. In the meantime, Christian and I will keep working together in a way that I consider and we consider a very efficient way and very efficient manner, as we've been doing so far, to deliver on our objectives and manage our challenges. We'll then be happy to welcome Lars. I -- again, I'm convinced that Lars' diverse experience in aerospace, engineering, operations, business management and which, by the way, includes more than 10 years already spent at Airbus, that Lars' experience and talent will be a great addition to our Airbus Executive Committee. So that's it for that part. And now going to our 9 months results. We continue to operate in an environment that we qualify as complex and fast changing, the geopolitical uncertainties and some specific supply chain, what we call, challenges or issues that have materialized in the course of this year forced us to adapt constantly. Against that backdrop, we remain focused on our priorities, which are the production ramp-up in Commercial Aircraft and the transformation of our Defense and Space division. So 2 main priorities, short term ramp-up and Defense and Space. We allocate our resources on what matters most, which means we are very focused on what we are doing, and we want to be leveraging our core business activities to further drive operational efficiency, therefore, meeting customers' demand. In this challenging operating environment, and I'd like to say together with our suppliers, we are progressing on our plan, always keeping safety and quality at the core of what we do. I insist. In that context, I'm very pleased with the delivery of the first XLR to Iberia that took place yesterday. Having launched the XLR at the Paris Air Show in 2019 and seeing this milestone today is a great satisfaction because it's indeed a significant milestone, and I really want to thank all the teams at Airbus and beyond Airbus for the successful development and certification of this latest and innovative variants of our incredible A320 family. In Q3, we delivered 174 commercial aircraft, bringing our year-to-date deliveries to almost 500, that is 497 aircraft as compared to 488 last year. It leads us to a delivery profile for the remainder of 2024, that is more backloaded than we anticipated. So we have an ambitious year-end rally in front of us, not the first time, but always an interesting situation. Our EBIT, adjusted, stood at EUR 2.8 billion at 9 months 2024. This reflects the commercial aircraft deliveries and the solid performance of Airbus Helicopters, but it also includes the charges recorded in the first half of the year on our space business. The free cash flow before customer financing was at minus EUR 0.8 billion, notably reflecting the inventory buildup that supports the Q4 deliveries and the ramp up. And on that basis, we maintained our 2024 guidance. Let's look now at our commercial environment and starting with commercial aircraft. The demand remains strong, if not very strong, as of 9 months, and we booked 667 gross orders, including 340 in the third quarter. On the A220, we booked 10 orders from airBaltic, which is, as you know, the largest A220 customer in Europe. On the A320 family, we booked 457 gross orders. So again, a very strong order intake for the 320 family. So 457, out of which 260 in the third quarter, bringing our backlog to 7,253 for this family of aircraft and more than 2/3 are for the A321. Moving to the widebodies, where we recorded 200 gross orders as of 9 months, and that includes 37 A330neos and 33 A350s, underpinning the good momentum for our widebody family. 9 months net orders amounted to 648 aircraft, following 19 cancellations. And our backlog in units stood at the end of September at the record level of 8,749 aircraft. Looking at Helicopters. In the 9 months '24, we booked 308 net orders to be compared with the 191 in the 9 months 2023, and the 308 net orders include 43 225 aircraft. This confirms the positive dynamic for this family of aircraft, the so-called Super Puma H225 family. And in the third quarter, we have signed a contract for 12 H225M, the military variant of multi-role helicopters with the Republic of Iraq, which is not yet reflected in the order book. Overall, I am pleased with this performance. We continue to see positive momentum in both civil and military markets, and we remain focused on securing new business opportunities in both the home countries, but also on the export markets. And now on to order intake recorded at Defense and Space. Here, we continue to see a strong order momentum across our business. And as of 9 months '24, the division had an order intake of EUR 11 billion, out of which EUR 4.5 billion in this third quarter. So very strong momentum in the quarter. On our space business, it includes, in particular, an important satellite called SATCOMBw 3. It's a prime contract for the next generation of secure military satellite systems for the German armed forces, namely Bundeswehr. Let me stress that the contracts booked recently reflects our new selective bidding strategy, as we call it. However, despite the improvements we are making in the space business, the environment remains competitive, highly competitive and somewhat disruptive. So it's now about execution. More concretely, we are fixing our foundations, while assessing strategic alternatives, rethinking the European landscape and evaluating potential consolidation options. Indeed, the space industry in Europe is undergoing major challenges in Europe and outside of Europe and needs to transform in order to remain competitive against other global players, including some new players. We'll continue to explore ways to strengthen the European space sector by streamlining investments, creating scale and becoming more competitive in order to add value for our shareholders. In parallel, we continue to work on enhancing the Defense and Space's overall performance through our transformation plan. As you recall, at the end of last year, we introduced a new organizational structure by moving engineering and operation functions to the 3 fully accountable business lines. And in October, last month -- this month, we went one step further and informed our social partners about the plan to adapt the division's organization and workforce. This shall result in the transfer of some headquartered functions to the business lines in the course of next year, in the course of 2025 and in a reduction of up to 2,500 positions until mid of 2026. These measures contribute to seeking to restore competitiveness of the division and will contribute to securing its profitability trajectory. So that concludes my remarks at that stage, and I hand over to Thomas, that will take you through our financials.

Well, thank you very much, Guillaume, and warm welcome to everybody on the call. I'm now on Page 6 of the presentation, and I will take you through our financial performance. So let's start by our 9-month 2024 revenues, which increased to EUR 44.5 billion, which is up 5% year-on-year, and that's mainly reflecting the number of commercial aircraft deliveries and a higher volume in our Air Power business. And on R&D, as you can see on the right-hand side on the chart, our expenses stood at EUR 2.4 billion as of 9 months 2024 versus EUR 2.2 billion in the 9 months of 2023. And while we continue to expect a slight increase at full year compared to last year, I would like to be transparent with you about the fact that we had to start earlier, the capitalization of our development costs in the development process to align with accounting standards. And this anticipated capitalization resulted in a lower R&D expense in the range of a high double-digit number as of the first 9 months of this year, with then, of course, the opposite effect on our CapEx. And you will find the full capitalized R&D expenses in our appendix exactly on Slide 29. Now on to our EBIT, adjusted. I'm on Page 7 of the presentation. Our 9 months 2024 EBIT, adjusted, decreased to EUR 2.8 billion from EUR 3.6 billion in the 9 months of 2023. And for your record, the 9 months of 2023 benefited from the progress that we made on our compliance topics, allowing us to release provisions for an amount of EUR 0.1 billion in Commercial Aircraft. But the 2023 numbers also contained updated assumptions on some long-term contracts in our space business, which resulted in a charge of EUR 0.4 billion. Now looking at 2024, the EUR 989 million charges recorded on our space business as of the first half of this year are the main driver of the year-on-year decline, and there were no further charges recorded in Q3 2024. However, let me remind you that there is still one major space program under technical review, for which we currently expect the final assessment by year-end. So as of 9 months 2024, the higher commercial aircraft deliveries are offset by investments to prepare the future, such as R&D expenses and also the increase in workforce leading to temporary overstaffing as well as a slightly less favorable hedge rate. The level of EBIT adjustments, as you can see on the upper right-hand side of the chart, was slightly negative for the first 9 months of this year, and they included minus EUR 146 million impact from the dollar working capital mismatch and balance sheet revaluation, of which minus EUR 165 million occurred in Q3. The adjustments also contained plus EUR 51 million related to the gain on the Airbus OneWeb satellite linked to the acquisition of the remaining 50% in the joint venture, which we recorded already in the first quarter, and they contain minus EUR 13 million of other costs, including compliance costs, of which negative EUR 8 million in Q3. So this takes our 9-month 2024 EBIT reported to EUR 2.7 billion. Now when it comes to the Airbus Defense and Space division's organization and workforce adaptation, which we announced in October, we are still in the early stage assessment of the potential financial impact, and a restructuring provision will be recognized once the necessary conditions are fulfilled. Our financial result was negative EUR 92 million and mainly reflects the interest result and the revaluation of financial instruments, partially offset by the positive impact of the revaluation of certain equity investments. The tax rate of the core business continues to be at around 27%. It excludes the potential French surtax, which could result in an impact of around of EUR 300 million for the year 2024, however, which would, of course, only be payable in 2025. Now the effective tax rate is 36%, and that includes impacts from the net deferred tax asset impairment. And so that the resulting net income, as you can see on the page, is EUR 1.8 billion with earnings per share reported of EUR 2.29 per share and our 9-month 2024 EPS adjusted stood at EUR 2.71 based on an average number of 790 million shares. Now with that, let me turn to our U.S. dollar exposure coverage, and I'm on Page 8 of the presentation. So in the 9 months of 2024, USD 16 billion of forwards matured with associated EBIT impact and euro conversions realized at a blended rate of $1.21 and versus $1.20 in the 9 months of 2023. And in the first 9 months of this year, we also implemented USD 11 billion of new coverage at a blended rate of $1.12. So that, as a result, our total U.S. dollar coverage portfolio in U.S. dollar stands at USD 86.7 billion, with an average blended rate of $1.22 as compared to USD 91.7 billion at $1.23 at the end of 2023. So now let's have a more detailed look at our free cash flow on Page 9. Our free cash flow before customer financing was negative EUR 0.8 billion in the first 9 months of the year. And this outflow was mainly driven by the change in working capital, notably the inventory buildup that, of course, supports our Q4 deliveries and the ramp-up across all programs. The A400M continues to weigh negatively on our free cash flow, and our 9-month 2024 CapEx was negative EUR 2.1 billion, and this reflects the investment in enhancing and upgrading our industrial system. To support our ramp-up, we expect our CapEx to increase in 2024, also reflecting the change in development cost capitalization, which I highlighted earlier. So that the free cash flow was negative EUR 0.9 billion with a minor impact from customer financing. In terms of customer financing, the aircraft financing environment remains solid, with currently sufficient liquidity in financial markets for product, and our net cash position to round it up stood at EUR 7.2 billion at the end of September and our liquidity remains around EUR 30 billion. And with that, I would like to hand it back to Guillaume.

Thank you, Thomas. And I'll start with the situation with Commercial Aircraft. In 9 months 2024, we delivered 497 aircraft to 77 customers. If we look at the situation by aircraft family, first, on the A220, we delivered 45 aircraft. We continue towards a monthly production rate of 14 aircraft in 2026, so rate 14 2026, while still working on the financial performance of this program. On the A320 family, we delivered 396 aircraft, of which 231 A321s, representing 58% of deliveries for the family. So a growing percentage of A321s. We continue to ramp-up towards a rate of 75 aircraft per month for 2027. We are very pleased that the first XLR has now been delivered to Iberia yesterday, and it will -- Iberia will soon be using this aircraft to connect Spain with the U.S. East Coast. We are now looking forward also to see this new product entering into service and bringing its unique capabilities in terms of range, economics and environmental efficiency with a lot of other customers. When it comes to widebodies, we delivered 56, out of which 20 A330neos and 36 A350s. We are now stabilizing monthly production of the A330neo at around rate 4. And on the A350, we continue to target the rate 12 in 2028, as we are also actively managing specific supply chain challenges that may have an impact on the ramp-up trajectory in particular next year, 2025. Before moving to the financials, let me remind you that the engines for narrow-body, that cabin and equipment and aerostructures, continue to be what we call the pacing elements of our commercial aircraft ramp-up. We focus our efforts on these specific items, engaging at almost all levels of the value chain in a targeted manner. And I can tell you that our teams are, I don't know how to say it, more than fully mobilized. Now let's look at the financials. For the Commercial Aircraft business, the revenues increased by 4% year-on-year, mainly reflecting higher -- slightly higher number of deliveries. The EBIT adjusted decreased to EUR 3 billion from EUR 3.2 billion in 9 months 2023, with the increase in deliveries being offset by investments for, what we call, preparing the future, notably the recruitment of skilled workforce, that is temporally resulting in other staffing and also coming from the slight increase of R&D. At Helicopters, in the 9 months, we delivered 190 helicopters, which is 7 less than in 9 months of 2023. Still the revenues increased to EUR 4.9 billion, reflecting a more favorable mix in programs and also a continued solid performance in services. And the EBIT, adjusted, stood at EUR 420 million, again, reflecting services and programs mix despite this lower level of deliveries. And to complete the review with the 9 months 2024 Defense and Space. The revenues increased 7% year-on-year, mainly driven by the Air Power business. and that's partly offset by the previous update of estimates and completion assumptions in Space Systems. The EBIT adjusted reflects the charges of EUR 989 million that we announced in H1 of this year during the earnings release call. For the record, the 9 months '23 also included EUR 0.4 billion of charges. Both impacts resulted mainly from the update of the estimate at completion assumptions in our space programs. Here, I'd like to echo what Thomas said under one major space program, that is still under review, and we are progressing, and we expect the final assessments by year-end, slightly before year-end. On the A400M, we delivered 5 aircraft in the year 2024. We continue with the development activities towards achieving this so-called revised capability road map. Our retrofit activities keep progressing in close alignment with our customers. There's no further net material impact that was recognized in the first 9 months of 2024, and we still have risk remaining on the qualification of technical capabilities and so-called associated costs on the aircraft operational reliability, on cost reduction and on securing the overall volume of aircraft as per the revised baseline. Now let me remind you of our guidance issued in June. And as the basis for that guidance -- for the 2024 guidance, the company assumes no additional disruptions to the world economy, air traffic, the supply chain, the company's internal operations and the ability of the company to deliver products and services. The company's 2024 guidance is before M&A and consequently, before outcomes of the ongoing due diligence with Spirit AeroSystems. So on that basis, the company targets to achieve, as issued in June, in 2024, around 770 commercial aircraft deliveries and EBIT adjusted of around EUR 5.5 billion and a free cash flow before customer financing of around EUR 3.5 billion. To conclude, with the key priorities, quite steady. Our commercial aircraft ramp-up and the Defense and Space transformation, as I said earlier, are today the areas of focus and are the enablers also for our objective. On Defense and Space, I told you in July that I would not take my eyes off the case before it is fixed. I stick to this. We did reach an important milestone by initiating the workforce adaptation plan. And we have, as I said earlier, engaged with our social partners on that matter. So we are on our way. On Commercial Aircraft, we are acting with focus with determination and the focus being on what we believe is what matters most. The lead initiative at commercial aircraft has been designed exactly for this purpose. It's about prioritizing our activities, putting priorities on priorities, I call it, allocating our resources and upskilling our teams to further drive the operational efficiency that we need. And on that note, and now, I believe, Helene, that I will hand over to you as we are ready to take your questions. Thank you.

Thank you, Guillaume. We will now start our Q&A session. [Operator Instructions] So Sharon, please go ahead and explain the procedure for the participants.

[Operator Instructions] And your first question comes from the line of Ross Law from Morgan Stanley.

I've got 3, if I can. Firstly, on the delivery guidance, what's the range included in the term around 770. Is it 10 aircraft, 20 aircraft or more? And what's giving you the confidence that you reached this level given that you're not building gliders? Second question on the A320. So you reiterated the rate 75 in 2027, but I believe in a recent media interview, Christian Scherer mentioned 2027-'28. Is this a softening of the message here? And lastly, on space, how far are you now through the audit? And what are the findings of this since the first half?

Thank you for the questions. Indeed, the around, in that case, 770 is what we used to stake as a wording for around. So I don't know exactly what it means. I think within a plus or minus 20, we would fall into this around. Last year, we delivered 735, where the guidance was around 720. So you see that, that falls into this range of plus, minus 20 aircraft that I would consider the order of magnitude of what around means in terms of number of deliveries. A320, rate 75 to be reached in 2027. So maybe Christian meant full year around at rates 75 is 2028 because we will reach that 75 in the year 2027. And obviously, we are at the end of '24. So there is, as you can imagine, a bit of flexibility of when that would mean exactly that we will reach 75 in 2027. And I mean we are struggling with more pragmatic issues as we speak now in 2024 for reaching the 770 that we were discussing before. Space audits actually, Well, audit is one thing. I think what is important here is the work that the team is conducting on the one program that has a major impact and whose analysis and audit is probably the word that we use some time, which is the complete assessment of the program from the top to the bottom and the bottom from the top, with replanning, with in-depth analysis of each and every work package that makes the program and the time it takes, the supplier assessments, the level of resources, the ability to deliver and as well -- I mean, the profitability of each and every delivery and therefore, having a full assessment of the EAC on that program. This will be completed before the end of this year. And that's what I said, I think, in the brief a bit earlier. And that's indeed the answer I want to give on that one. And I'm looking at Thomas, anything more?

I think we can say we're making good progress in the assessment of the program. But as you can imagine, as Guillaume said, it's very complex because you have to assess the entire estimate at completion, and that means the entire supply chain, that means our internal procedures, et cetera, et cetera and also, of course, the market perspective. So therefore, it is simply not possible to give any intermediate results, but we are very certain that by the end of the year, we will also have assessed this program, and that should then conclude the story around space with our assessments where we are.

Your next question comes from the line of Chloe Lemarie from Jefferies.

I have 2, if I may. So the first one is on Airbus Commercial performance, if I could dig into this. On the lead initiative impact in Q3 and what would see in Q4, but also on potential compensation impact. So whether you've been receiving compensation from some suppliers, whether you've been paying compensation to some of your customers and how we should think about this impacting Q3 and maybe Q4? And the second one is still on space. I mean we understand this is a challenged sector at the moment. But I mean what could be done to help the sector if there's too much opposition to consolidation within Europe?

You take the first one?

Yes, let me start with the lead program. And obviously, we announced that in the summer with our H1 results, and we're making good progress. So let me just remind you what it is. It's not a restructuring program, but it is a program where we refocus the entire organization on what matters most, and that is mainly the ramp-up. And that, of course, also means that we deprioritize things and projects and initiatives that could simply distract the organization from exactly that ramp-up and the focus on our supply chain. So therefore, we're not laying off people that would make absolutely no sense. Yes, we have -- we hired a lot of people in the last year, but that is necessary and sensible to do so because we do not want to create our own bottlenecks. So therefore, again, it's much more about revisiting a long list of projects and initiatives and refocusing the organization. What should be the impact of that for the full year? I would roughly quantify it with a couple of hundred million positive effect. However, let me very clearly say that it's only to counterbalance other negatives, which, of course, we have, namely a high level of staffing, also the inflation and therefore, to be very clear, it's counterbalancing negatives that otherwise we would have faced in 2024.

On space, so there are many different ways of skinning the cat, if I may call it like this. Our space activity, when it comes to satellites, is a diverse one. We have telecoms, civil telecoms. We have MilSatCom. We have exploration. We have science. We have earth observation. So it's a set of different segments. Ideally, we find solutions that cover all the segments, but we could also find solutions that are a bit subscale. Actually, it starts with ourselves. We have taken and we have onboarded in programs or in contracts where the level of risk that we have taken in those programs was significantly higher than what we've been able to digest. So that's also something we are working on. We are rebaselining the way we are going to market with much more discipline in the way we offer new bidding approach that goes for Defense And Space, but in particular, for Space. It's fixing those programs. It's resizing and readapting the space business to what we can do in a profitable way. And it's obviously some downsizing that we are doing and especially cost reduction when it comes to what's impacting the profitability of our programs. And beyond what I said at the beginning, well, there is potential for consolidation in Europe. We have to stick to European rules. There is an appetite in Europe at the moment to look at sovereignty, to look at the ability to create in defense, in particular, but not only companies at the size that will enable -- that will make competition outside of Europe with non-European players healthier ones. So there are plenty of opportunities of moving forward. First and foremost, we are dealing with what is fully in our control. And then we are looking at other opportunities, including, but not limited to, consolidation in Europe.

Just quickly on your second question, we don't want to omit this one. You asked about compensation for suppliers. So as we said in our first half call, yes, we're very strict asking for compensation if suppliers do not honor the agreements that we have. But of course, that is a second best solution. What we want is the deliveries. But yes, I can tell you, we're very, very strict that we are asking for compensation, if that is appropriate. In the end, of course, we're trying to find constructive solutions for Airbus, because what is much better is getting the deliveries than filing claims against your supply chain.

Just going back on the compensation question. So we should not expect any material compensation paid out to your customer in Q4. That's how we should think about it?

Whether we are in Q3, Q4 or next year, there's always when we relate discussion with customers, depending on the nature and the origin of the delays, they are in the same situation as the one described by Thomas towards us than we are with our supply chain. And we have a flow of compensation coming from suppliers as we move forward. We've been in a tough situation with few suppliers now for almost a year. It got better last year, but this year is a difficult one. And it's a bit upsetting each other when we really receive from our suppliers part equipment late, then we are delivering late. And you can imagine that there is a set of compensation on both sides. So we're not leaving from compensation, and there's no better business case of not delivering. It's always better for Airbus to be delivering net from what we have potentially to pay to our customers in [ LDs ] versus what we got from our suppliers.

Your next question comes from the line of Victor Allard from Goldman Sachs.

First question, I was hoping if you could give us an update on how you see the shape of the ramp by platform in the coming years, considering the visibility that you have today? I guess where I'm coming from is hearing from you Guillaume and looking at the press release this evening, you have noted that specific challenges on the A350, which may have an impact on the trajectory for 2025. So any qualitative color that you have here would be helpful. And the second question is on inflation. So -- we've seen GIFAS and Banque de France report on the state of the French supply chain at least in Q3. There are still many suppliers struggling indeed. So is that something which hold you back today to revise your view on inflation and to provide more color on its evolution looking into next year and beyond?

I can take the inflation question. So I would reiterate our assessment from earlier this year, which is we are still expecting a couple of hundred million negative effect from inflation in 2024, slightly less than what we had last year. So inflation clearly is coming down. It's not a big swing factor in our year-end projections. And as I said earlier, we are counterbalancing those effects in terms of inflation, but also, of course, the high level of staffing that we're having with our efficiency program, the lead program where we are trying to focus on the projects and the things that matter most. But I would say there is no big news on inflation. Our assessment has not changed over the last 3 months.

To complete maybe on your question, you referred to the Banque de France study, which we looked at in detail, actually at GIFAS. I find it quite interesting to compare 2023 with 2019, both for [ GEODIS ] company and smaller SMEs. And I think a lot of -- the majority of the companies back to where they were in '19 on the economic standpoint, but probably with degraded balance sheet and a more challenging financial situation. So that gives an indication of the type of problems that need to be tackled. And with the ongoing initiative to have a second so-called [ ARO ] funds to be able to act, to intervene, to support with equity and reinforce the supply chain that's for the French supply chain. Now when it comes to your question, your first question on the shape of ramp-up of products. Well, that's not something we are doing in details. We'll give an indication probably beginning of next year on what we intend to do next year, the beginning of the year, potential guidance. That's what we like to be doing, but it's not yet there. Indeed, I flagged the 350 because we see already that sort of linear ramp-up from '23, '24 to 2028 is not what we will get. Actually, the start of the ramp-up is challenged by some suppliers. I mentioned Spirit, which is the one that is causing the most concerns. It's a different situation for others on the 320, we keep ramping up. There's an ongoing challenge at the moment that I flagged earlier on engines, be them from Pratt, it's known, and more recently from CFM with the recent issues they faced with some of their parts. So it's a bit of a moving picture, not month by month, but probably quarter-by-quarter. And we are not giving color on this because that doesn't reflect the underlying ramp-up trajectory that we believe makes sense on the midterm.