Bango PLC (BGO) Earnings Call Transcript

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Bango PLC Final Results Investor Presentation. [Operator Instructions] Before we begin, we would like to submit the following poll. And if you could give that your kind attention, I'm sure the company would be most grateful. And I would now like to hand you over to the executive management team from Bango PLC. Paul, good morning, sir.

Good morning, everybody, and thank you very much for taking the time to join us this morning. I'm joined here by Matt Wilson, our CFO -- new CFO, who joined at the start of the year. We'll spend quite a lot of time going through the results for '24 in quite a bit of detail. And then Sukey is here as well, who will guide us through the Q&A at the end. Thanks to everybody who submitted questions in advance. We've had a great number of questions in advance. We'll try to answer all of those at the end. But if you have any, as we go through, please do add them into the online tool. So today, we're going to go through the reminder of the sort of the business model, a bit of a summary of 2024, and then I'll turn it over to Matt to go into the financials in quite a lot of detail. I then want to talk about the DVM opportunity and some of the signposts we've seen in the market for the size of the opportunity and how we're playing in it and how we're progressing against our ambitions in that particular market. We're then going to talk about sort of where we've been investing. So a lot of our investments in R&D CapEx, which has started to come down, sort of peaked in '23, was down in '24, will decrease further in '25 and '26. And I want to really give you a bit more flavor of where we're investing in that and why we're investing in that and the benefits that we're seeing from that investment. And then we'll talk a little bit about the outlook, how you can find a bit more about Bango and then we'll move on into the Q&A. So a lot to go through. So please do continue to ask questions as we go through. Just as a reminder, if you ever visit one of our Bango offices, you'll see this sort of everywhere. We're here to be the place where people subscribe to give power and control for customers. Our values are thrive. You can see those at the bottom. They power everything we do in terms of how we strive to behave and how we go about sort of driving ourselves towards that vision. And I thought that was a nice link before we sort of dive into the results to talk about the ESG, well, and certainly the E&S aspects of ESG and I think the social one for us is really all about people. We've had a very big spike in sort of the employee base, as you can see from the graph, the line on the graph on the right-hand side shows you with the DOCOMO acquisition, we went from over sort of 120 people and nearly peaked to sort of 360 and then we sort of come down continually from that. And you can see that in the sort of the graph on the right, which is basically our employee engagement survey. It's something we do annually. The line shows you the number of respondents, and we always get sort of in excess of 95% of employees responding that, which again is sort of a really good sign of employee engagement. And what you've seen is throughout that period, we've continued to have really sort of best-in-class positive responses. That's the sort of the blue bar in terms of the people who respond positive to the 80 or so questions we ask them once a year and a declining number of negative answers. And obviously, the gap between the 2 are sort of people in that sort of neutral zone. So throughout the journey that we've been on, we've continued to maintain really strong employee engagement. That's important for recruitment. It's important for retention, and it's important for the productivity, right, because fundamentally, engaging employees give a discretionary effort, which allows us to do some pretty extraordinary things. And we also like to support the charities of our employees support. So we supported 11 different charities last year. Those are all employee-led activities. We don't have a company charity that we support. We support what our employees are passionate about, and that's really sort of a core part of our sort of values here at Bango. And finally, on the environmental, we've been talking about measuring our carbon emissions for a number of years now. We've recently changed to a new service, which we think is really the best and allows the sort of the lowest cost way of measuring the emissions and our carbon footprint in a great deal of detail, a lot more detail than we've ever had before. And really, we're driving for that net zero in 2040, and we have a whole host of actions to sort of drive down our carbon footprint as we continue to grow the business. There's lots of detail online in our sustainability report as well as in the annual report, which was also published today. Just a reminder of our strategy, there are 4 key pillars to our strategy of growth. You'll see these feature very heavily in the annual report and in the CEO statement. Firstly, on expand, it's all about dominating the distribution of subscriptions through the telco channel. You can see we've made some great progress on that as we'll talk about as we go through this presentation. Explore is about looking at new verticals. The next one with Continente in Portugal at the end of last year, Portugal's largest high street retailer adding Disney+ into their loyalty program, I think, is a great example of that. And there's a healthy pipeline building behind that in both financial services as well as in Bango as well as in retailer. And increasingly, we're seeing content providers look to create their own bundles, so people putting complementary content with their own content. So Sirius XM in the U.S. have just launched a bundle with FOX Nation that puts that FOX Nation SVOD service alongside their music streaming service to create sort of a unique content offer. And the digital vending machine is really at the heart of all of those sort of transitions and all of those different mechanisms of bringing bundles to market. And the nice thing is for all of those use cases, it's exactly the same products. When I talk about the investments, I talk about the features, you'll see it's exactly the same no matter what the vertical is. The enhance this is probably, I think, the least developed. We're in sort of very much in that experimental phase. And if you think about it, we sit between content providers and sort of distribution channels, and we sit sort of between the two, and we bridge on the platform that bridges those two worlds together. And we're paid in effect by the people at the bottom, by the sort of the reseller at the bottom who's distributing that content in most cases. But really, what we have is a whole host of valuable data in the platform. And all our experiments in this enhance focus are really how can we monetize that data, how can we use that data to deliver more success to allow more subscriptions to convert, to allow more people to upgrade, to allow content providers to better target customers. And so lots of opportunities to, in effect, look to monetize both halves of the marketplace with exactly the same product just with using some of the information that's in that product in a different way. So very much experimentation certainly for the future, but really for us, sort of a key area of development. And it's one of the reasons that Marisa joined us as Chief Product Officer is to really spearhead the work in that particular area. And finally, on extract, that's all about managing the payments business for cash profit. We continue to still continue to see growth. We still continue to add new routes in that business, but it's a lot more disciplined now we will turn off routes that were not profitable. Matt will go through some more detail on that later, but it's really a very disciplined approach to that payments business, which following the DOCOMO digital acquisition is really sort of at the scale where it can be a significant cash engine for the business. And again, Matt will cover more on that as we go through the presentation. Just a reminder, we sort of do have, and we'll talk about these as we go through the presentations, 2 halves of the business. So we have sort of the payments business, which we book as sort of in that transactional revenue stream. Carrier billing is the best example of that. So you purchase something and you pay for it on your phone bill, whether it's a bag of PokéCoins here from the Google Play store or whether it's some physical goods from the amazon.co.jp store in Japan. It really doesn't matter, you go and you make that purchase and rather than pay for it on a credit card, you charge it to your mobile phone. We act as a bridge between those global content providers and the telcos who basically have the bill on which that charge is placed. And on the other side, we have the Digital Vending Machine. That's that bridge in the subscription world between content providers and people who want to distribute and resell those content providers. And that's where the Digital Vending Machine comes in, and we'll spend a lot of time talking through that as we move through the presentation. Both of those fundamentally benefit from a sort of a very simple and single value proposition. And certainly, the benefits and the technology differentiators we have in the product go way beyond this. But if you boil it down into the simplest words, it's that you connect once and you access many. So we bridge worlds between content providers and channels and telcos and you connect to us once and you get access to everybody on the other side. And we make those connections very quick and very seamless. And that's fundamentally what we do. We're bringing those 2 worlds together. And that's the same for the Digital Vending Machine, and it's the same for the payments business. On the Digital Vending Machine, we ended the year with 110 content providers. If you look across DCB and DVM together, we have 115 content providers and 125 sort of people, if you like, on the south side of that platform, mainly telcos, but obviously moving beyond that, who are connected into us to get access to all those different content providers. And we can launch all those people very quickly, and I'll talk a little bit more later on about why that's possible a little bit later on. But that's sort of the core value. Connect once you access many, we can bring these services live very quickly indeed to market. So 2024 was a really strong year. I think a year of both growth and optimization. If you look at sort of the CAGR for the sort of the 3 revenue, both the group revenue as well as the divisional split, we over the last few years, where the CAGR has been around sort of mid-30s percent. You start to see in last year, a big step-up in EBITDA, and you see that in the graph on the right-hand side, and Matt will talk a little bit more about why that is, but that's really because of the operational leverage we have in the platform that showed that growth in the top line, coupled with some disciplined cost management allow it to drop to the bottom line. And we'll talk a lot more about profitability as we go through this deck. The Digital Vending Machine obviously gives us this recurring revenue stream. So we started to report ARR a few periods ago. That saw good growth of almost 60% to $14 million last year. Part of that within that, again, we started to report a new metric net revenue retention. That's the growth in the same cohort of customers from 1 year to the next. Anything above 100% means those customers are growing. And so you see the 125%, and that's as existing customers start to support more subscriptions and to climb through those license tiers. And we'll show a few different splits on how you can interpret that as we go through the presentation. We've got 9 new DVM deals in 2024, and wrap up at the end, I'll talk about what we've seen in 2025 so far, which is certainly an acceleration, but continued momentum in terms of bringing new customers onto the platform as well as content providers. So again, we added a whole host of new content providers who are using the Digital Vending Machine to distribute their subscription services to a variety of channels. So a really strong year, I'd say a combination of both growth and optimization. You see that big step-up in EBITDA. And I think that's a good point to sort of turn it over to Matt, who can both introduce himself and also walk you through some more detail.

Thanks, Paul. Good morning, everybody. A really exciting time for me to be joining Bango and thrilled to be here and looking forward to walking you through the results for fiscal year '24. So overall, as Paul outlined earlier, I think we can consider it a transformational year for Bango delivering double-digit revenue growth, a significant EBITDA improvement of 139% and a strong second half performance, I think, that underscores our continued progress and resilience. So starting with the top line momentum continues. Group revenue up 16% on the year and a compound annual growth rate of a little under 40% over the last 3 years. Annual recurring revenue, up 59% on the year to $14 million and 10 new partners starting to generate ARR in fiscal year '24. As well as new business growth, we saw continued growth in our existing customer base, and by way of reminder, we measure this through our net revenue retention metric, and that's the ARR from existing customers at the end of the period divided by the ARR from those same customers at the beginning of the period. And in keeping with last year, we saw this metric continuing above 100% with 125% delivered in FY '24. So looking at each segment in turn and starting with transactional, a strong year overall, up 11% on fiscal year '23 and 14% at constant currency. For transparency, I've broken out the revenue bridge here into the various components to provide a little bit more color on the performance. So as we continue to optimize and improve the profitability of the portfolio, we exited some loss-making routes, and you can see that in the second bar on the chart. During the DOCOMO Digital acquisition, we acquired some routes with quite low margin and a high cost of sales. These routes grew by $3.8 million during the year, which was much higher than we forecast. Important to note though, because these routes have very low margin, they have minimal impact to adjusted EBITDA. Growth in what we call the core transactional business, which is basically everything aside from those exit routes and the higher cost of sales routes I just mentioned. Gross margin there is typically a lot higher, so circa 90%. We saw good growth there in fiscal year '24, growing by $2 million. We then experienced some FX impacts, particularly in Japan on the back of a strong U.S. dollar against the yen, and you can see that in the penultimate bar. But overall, a strong year for the transactional business. Moving on to DVM and one-off revenue. We saw growth from both existing customers and new contract wins, so up 28% overall. If we then exclude the Audiences business, which we discontinued in Q1, underlying growth was an impressive 40%. We ended the year with 27 DVM customers, 24 of which were generating ARR. And based on feedback and interest around our customer mix, I've included some cohort analysis for ARR, which you can see on the right-hand side. The top chart breaks those 24 DVM customers down by size. So at the low end, we have customers generating less than $500,000 ARR and the top end for ARR greater than $2 million. And I think the key point really to bring out here is the ARR increasing as the customers move through the license tiers. And you can see that with the appearance of the yellow bar in fiscal year '24, where we now have 2 customers generating ARR greater than $2 million as their subscription growth increases. The bottom chart then shows ARR by contract date. So customers added pre-December '23 in the purple bar and then the turquoise bar those added in fiscal year '24. And as we covered with the net revenue retention, you can see the strong growth in that pre-December '23 cohort. So moving on to the next slide, looking at costs. So I think 2024 marked a year where we were very disciplined on expenses. So again, to support transparency, I tried to isolate our core administrative expenses, which you can see in the blue highlighted line in the table because I think this is a better indicator of the controllable expenses in our business. And it removes items such as D&A, capitalized R&D and exceptionals, which can effectively distort the overall picture. So as you can see, between fiscal year '23 and '24, we actually delivered a $7 million reduction in core admin expenses over the period. And part of that is driven by people costs as the rapid scaling we undertook following the DOCOMO Digital acquisition has since been rationalized back. And you can see in the bottom chart, which shows the average headcount over the year, decreasing from fiscal year '23, and we expect it to further decrease this year by another 14% to around 200. Outside of the core admin expenses, you will see increased D&A expenses. That's natural. As you'll recall, we've done a lot of investment in capitalized R&D. And as that begins to generate revenue, it will start to amortize. We had $4.2 million of exceptional items over the period, $2 million of which was a noncash impairment, and those relate to assets within the audience business, which, as I mentioned earlier, we ceased in Q1 last year. Moving on to the next slide and covering sort of R&D CapEx. So overall, capitalized R&D reduced by $2.3 million, and we expect further reductions this year in 2025 and then further reductions in 2026. And I think by 2026, we'll be targeting that capitalized R&D being 20% of sales. We've seen the complexity of the DOCOMO digital integration, and I think Paul has touched on that previously, which has effectively extended the time line. But migrations, I'm pleased to say, have now largely completed with 98% of traffic acquired having been migrated to the Bango platform. As a result, we expect that transactional R&D CapEx to be $1 million going forward from FY '26, and that really supports healthy cash generation in that segment with adjusted EBITDA margins approaching 50% and really is sort of the cash-generative engine of our business. So with development of the core Digital Vending Machine now complete, continued investment in the product is there really to underpin future growth. So whether that be new features to increase revenue per user. So for example, the customer CX interface or increasing the stickiness of customers through enhanced offer management or really reducing the internal effort to integrate on the Bango side, and we can do that through the Sandbox environment that we've created. So pulling that all together for the period, strong adjusted EBITDA increase for the year, up 139% on fiscal year '23 to $15.3 million. You'll see in the gross margin line, we saw a slight dilution there, and that was driven by the higher mix of those higher cost of sales routes in the transactional business I talked about earlier. Excluding these routes, the transactional business as a whole will have gross margin of approximately 90%. We saw a benefit in other income last year of $2.2 million. This relates to the recovery of costs from the -- from NTT DOCOMO for periods pre the acquisition of DOCOMO Digital. It's very difficult to predict what these will be. We do expect there will be other recharges in future, but not at the same level that we saw in fiscal year '24. So following the strong revenue growth and overall disciplined cost control, EBITDA margin now improving to just under 30%. And given the operational leverage we have in the platform, we expect to further build on that going through this year and into FY '26. Overall loss for the year narrowed this year to minus $3.7 million, a $5 million improvement on fiscal year '23. And I expect Bango to generate a profit at that bottom line from fiscal year '26 onwards. Moving on to cash flow. We ended the year with a reduction in cash of $300,000 versus the prior year. The step-up in cash flow from operations driven by that increase in adjusted EBITDA as well as a positive inflow from working capital. That working capital benefit coming from the timing of receipts and payments within our transactional business. And that's for routes where Bango effectively sits in the middle of the payment flow between telco and merchant. And as that cash moves through, we take our revenue share. We expect that inflow that we achieved in fiscal year '24 to fully unwind in fiscal year '25. Last year, the business used this working capital benefit to fund cash flow with limited buffer. I think this year, a real part of my initial focus has been to really proactively address that and really derisk the position. And the new financing facilities that we put in place, and I'll talk about that on the next slide, have supported that approach. The increase in cash flow from operations was then largely offset by investment in R&D, which continues to be the main use of cash, although as we've said, that will come down as we move through fiscal year '25 and fiscal year '26. From a financing perspective, we made 2 repayments on the existing shareholder loan with NHN and the $3 million overdraft facility we have with Barclays remained undrawn at the end of the year. Culminating together, net debt improving to $1.8 million, which was a $2.2 million reduction on fiscal year '23. As I mentioned just now, a large part of my early focus at Bango has been on the capital structure. And I'm pleased to announce 2 new financing facilities in conjunction with our fiscal year results. One, an enhanced loan facility with NHN as well as a new revolving credit facility with NatWest, and that will replace the existing overdraft with a much larger committed facility. And I think both financings demonstrate the strong confidence in Bango's business and strategic plan, both from our shareholders and our banking partners. And I'm pleased to say this really materially strengthens the balance sheet as we move through FY '25. So under the enhanced loan from NHN, the existing loan will be topped up by $2.85 million, essentially returning the loan to the original balance when the loan was put in place. And those loan repayments will be deferred until the end of 2026 and the interest rate on the entire balance will move from 6% to 7%. In conjunction with that, new warrants will be issued and the warrants on the existing loan will be canceled. Under the NatWest facility, we've secured a multicurrency 3-year RCF of $15 million with a step down to $12 million in year 3. That facility will obviously come with standard financial covenants, and those will be tested from September 2025 quarterly, but we're confident of having significant covenant headroom in all those metrics. And as I say, those facilities will really provide significant flexibility to accelerate the initiatives we want to put through this year and into FY '26. So lastly for me, sort of looking ahead. So with a much stronger balance sheet and committed financing, my priorities now turn to revenue growth and really driving that profitability. In terms of where we are to date, the core transactional revenue, so again, that's excluding those high cost of sales routes we talked about earlier, currently trading in line with expectations. The strategic investment in the digital vending machine and overall growth in super bundling are driving a strong sales pipeline with plenty of opportunity this year. And I'm pleased to say DVM is on track once again to really deliver high double-digit revenue growth for this year, in line with consensus. The high cost of sales routes in transactional have had a more volatile start to the year and are currently behind expectations. And that's driving some of that working capital outflow, I sort of touched on earlier. But I think it's really important again to stress given the low margin profile of these routes, there is very limited impact to adjusted EBITDA. As a result, we expect to report adjusted EBITDA for '25 in line with consensus. We're also progressing with a series of efficiency initiatives this year, and those are expected to deliver a $1 million upgrade to fiscal year '26 adjusted EBITDA versus consensus. We've taken actions to reduce costs of sales and improve gross margin and the high cost of sales routes that remain will be under continuing review to see if we can further optimize. I mentioned earlier, R&D CapEx is also forecast to reduce versus consensus, $0.5 million this year and a further $1 million next year. As the bulk of our expenses are people, there are restructuring costs associated with those efficiencies, which will have a cash impact this year. And those exceptionals, coupled with the unwind in working capital and also the one-off costs that we've incurred in conjunction with putting the financing facilities in place will result in a cash outflow in fiscal year '25. However, the NHN loan and the revolving credit facility with NatWest will provide more than adequate headroom to manage that transition effectively. So these efficiency savings and continued revenue growth underpinned by a strengthened balance sheet will result in significant cash generation as we go into fiscal year '26. And we can really look forward to the future with a lot of confidence. And with that, I'll hand back to Paul.

Thanks, Matt. So let's zoom in on the DVM opportunity in a little bit more detail and just sort of try to give some signposts of sort of where we are and where we're going. So if you step back and look at the broader subscription economy, we can see that, that economy is continuing to grow at a 6-year CAGR of just over 6% with an estimation of 3.5 billion paid digital subscriptions by 2029. So clearly a massive market. What's important for us is there's an even faster growth in the portion of those subscriptions that have started being bundled. This is some data for Omdia. And you can see that the growth of bundled subscriptions just through telcos is actually significantly higher than the growth of the overall subscription market. So you can see almost 10% CAGR with almost over 600 million subscriptions bundled through telcos alone by 2029. And that's really where the digital vending machine platform fits is the bridge between people having that subscription service and those that want to bundle it and distribute it through a channel. So that's entirely our market is that growth in bundled subscriptions. And here, this is just talking about telco. Obviously, if you include the other channels as well, it goes significantly higher than that. If we step back and look at why is that happening? So this is from some data. If you follow us on LinkedIn or anything, you will have seen the various reports that we publish. It's probably a good place to mention, I would encourage you to join and register for our new investor website where you will get automatically notified by some of the work and some of the research that we do, which is primarily to support some of the commercial activities. But I think as investors, you find it very interesting. One of the service we've done is understanding why people buy subscriptions and where they buy subscriptions for. And you can see here there's an increasing number of people are buying multiple subscriptions through channels. And they're doing that because they want a better value. They want more control. They want to make it easier to sign up. But almost sort of the 5.4 average subscriptions that people have, 2 of those are now coming through a channel. So you can see that's a significant change versus some of the research we did a year or so ago. And now almost 2/3 of customers now are buying multiple subscriptions through a channel. And I say that's where the Digital Vending Machine sits. It's that bridge between subscription services and channels that want to distribute those subscription services. And the nature of the bundles is changing as well. And this is also good news because certainly the value and the importance of Digital Vending Machine increases as you go from sort of left to right. If we look historically, bundles were, I think, very simplistic. You bought a particular mobile plan and you got one service free as part of that. And we sort of call that sort of basic bundles. It's a very simple thing. So you sign up for this, you get Amazon free as part of that or Amazon as a discount as part of that telco subscription bundle. So really not much choice, very sort of fixed offers, clearly giving the customer sort of value add. That's a lot of what we do already is in basic bundles and the digital vending machine supports it. But where it really starts to come into its own as we move into what we call multiparty bundles and into super bundling. And multiparty bundles are bundles where maybe there's choice, maybe there's multiple different pieces of content put together, maybe there's some discounted that you can then add on additional services on. So it's giving consumers more choice around how to create these bundles, what services they pick, how they put them together, which level of subscription we've got, don't forget, Netflix now is not just one subscription. There are multiple different tiers from an ad-supported tier to a regular tier to a premium tier where you get sort of the 4K and the Dolby Atmos, et cetera. So multiple different tiers and giving the customer that choice about how they put those together is becoming increasingly important. And we call that multiparty bundles. And then the final stage is that move to sort of super bundling and think of that as almost the app store for subscriptions, Optus SubHub being one of the best examples where you can go in, pick all these subscriptions, try them easily without having to give your credit card details, experiment with them, maybe pause them, bundle them together, get discounts for buying multiple ones is sort of the ultimate choice for bringing all your subscriptions in one place. And I say, while Digital Vending Machine serves all 3 of those, the value that we can provide and the differentiation we have really ramps up as you go from sort of left to right. And that's what we see sort of happening in the sort of the telco bundling market. If we sort of take that telco bundled chart that I showed a while ago and look at how do we think that's moving. If you look at the conversion from basic to super bundled, you can see at the moment today, most subscriptions are sort of simple bundled, but there's an increasing growth of these either multiparty bundles or super bundled subscriptions. And so we see that growth being really, really high, close to 80% CAGR. I say, and that's where the Digital Vending Machine really adds significant value. And sort of an indication of sort of where we are. So we talked about these hundreds of millions of subscriptions. I think if you read through the annual report, and we've said this previously in the past, today on Digital Vending Machine, we're generating tens of millions of dollars of revenue from tens of millions of subscriptions. Well, here's the first time we're giving you sort of a bit more detail and flavor on the number of subscriptions that are managed through the platform. So we ended 2024 with about 15 million subscriptions on the platform. We're now just in excess of sort of 18 million. So you can see we're in that sort of tens of millions in terms of the number of subscriptions that are managed through the platform. And these are active subscriptions. This is where there's a user who's actively using that. In most cases, the way subscriptions are managed, if you pause a subscription, it still counts towards a subscription license tier. And I think it's best just to talk about the active ones because I think that's a better and sort of a clearer metric. But quite often, in the subscription license tiers that operators have, they count subscriptions in other states other than active. So you can see we've seen good -- really good growth over the past sort of the last 12 or 18 months taking us into that sort of close to 20 million active subscriptions. And if we think about sort of our ambition, and I think we talked about before is we're doing tens of millions of revenue from tens of million subscriptions, you can sort of see that we want to do hundreds of millions of revenue from hundreds of million subscriptions. And that ambition, I think, is supported also by the likes of telcos like Verizon. You can see quotes here from the CEO of different investor conferences, in particular, talking about how they want 50% of their customers to be on myPlan. So if you look at the size of Verizon's customer base, it's about, I don't know, 100-plus million customers, of which probably 20 million to 30 million are probably eligible for sort of the myPlan type services. You can -- we're talking tens and tens, if not hundreds of million subscriptions just from one operator alone. So you can see the real -- when we talk about our ambition to get to hundreds of millions of revenue for 100 million subscriptions, you can see that operators equally have ambitions that very, very much support that. And we're in a really strong place of sitting at the heart of all these different subscription services supporting some of the world's largest telcos like Verizon who have really lofty ambitions in terms of generating more and more of their revenue and delivering more value to their customers by bundling third-party subscriptions together. Looking a bit more on investment for the future. I talked about this a little bit at the start. One of the things that the digital vending machine does is make the bridging of these 2 worlds easy. And this is a simplistic example that shows on one side on the right-hand side, what a content provider looks like. And you can see most content providers have multiple APIs. Some have a mixture of synchronous and asynchronous. They upgrade and update those APIs regularly as they add new plans ad-supported tiers, et cetera. And so it's very complex to keep pace and also to do the first integration. And what the Digital Vending Machine does is because we access that connect once access many, it allows us to do that work once and makes it available to hundreds of telcos without any effort on the telco part. So it really is that sort of connect once access many. And a lot of the investment that we've been doing so far in building the core platform is to make this as simple as possible. So there's no -- we can upgrade one content provider and all our telcos immediately get access to all the new features that are available with that new telco API. So the telcos don't have to integrate to these 6 or 7 APIs and do bespoke integrations on a per content provider basis. They can do one integration to Bango and get access to the 100 and so content providers that are on the other side of the platform. And that's really the sort of the core platform and the core benefit of the platform, as I talked about earlier. And you see that in terms of the ability of us to bring services to market and bring services to market very rapidly. That's the value that the platform delivers. But increasingly, we're moving and extending and certainly where the R&D CapEx is focused now is on managing that subscription over its entire life cycle. So if you think right at the start, if you operate in a sort of a bundling or a multiparty bundling or a super bundling platform, how do I find content providers? How do I get them on board? We build things called partner portal, so you can go in and self-discover content providers that you want to add to your bundle. Our existing program where we act as a distributor for those services is a core part of that. And already, we've launched a couple of services this year where partners have self-discovered themselves without us necessarily having to do sort of any introductions or any sort of ongoing discussions. And you bring that partner in, how do you integrate it, how do you test it? As Matt mentioned, a lot of one of our drivers for R&D is where we can reduce the effort that's required on our side. So tools like a sandbox, so that people can self-certify into the platform, can self test, can self-connect are really, really important about driving down the overall cost that Bango has, maintaining the Digital Vending Machine and bringing on new partners. And then we get into sort of the complex world of offers and how these bundles are put together. And I'm going to move and delay that a bit to the next slide because that's where really a lot of the value and a lot of the intelligence really sits within the platform that we've delivered over the past 12 months or so. But right at the end, you sort of have the maximizing growth and that's how we can use the data and the dashboard and the insights that we have in the platform to make sure that subscriptions are renewed. We're looking at features using AI to things like automatic and proactive renewal messages, how do you target the right customer base. There's lots of opportunity for using the data along with AI and the platform to really -- we can maximize the growth. So it's not just about bringing the offers to market, it's about how do you make them successful once they're in that market. Now offer management and offer orchestration is extremely complex, and it's -- I've tried multiple times to create a simple slide and sort of gave up. So -- and I think really, that's because what that feature does is take something complex and try to make it simple. So let's take something that intuitively seems very simple. You want to take a single telco subscription. So I don't know, so many minutes or so many gigs of data per month. I want to offer my customers with that this unique piece of content that I'm going to bundle Netflix and HBO Max together, and I'm going to give them that as part of that tier package. And then I'm going to allow them to pick one or more other things that they can add on top. So sort of perks that they can bundle on top. Sounds pretty straightforward. It sounds like the sort of thing that should be very easy to do. But if you break it down into the constituent components, it gets very complex very quickly. Simply activating all those at the start could be in excess of sort of 30 different API calls, right? It's a very complex workflow because you've got to create the telco subscription, you've then got to create the Netflix subscription, the HBO Max subscription and then the perks subscription. So it's a lot of work to where you can sort of get that set up. So what we've done with offer management and offer orchestration is make that a lot simple. It's a templated approach. So you can describe that offer, publish that offer to Bango and we take care of all the orchestration. So we've taken all that complexity away from the sort of telcos back office system and absorbed it within the Digital Vending Machine. And the benefits of that allows these services to launch a lot quicker. The faster we bring these services to market, obviously, the faster we start generating recurring revenue and the faster subscriptions come towards the license tiers. It allows us to reduce the effort because actually helping an operator through these 30 different API calls and the different error cases is very, very complicated. So it allows us to actually reduce the effort of bringing these services to market at the same time as bringing them to market faster. And it creates a very sticky relationship because historically, that complex business logic that might be done in the telcos back office is now done within the Digital Vending Machine. So it creates a very sticky long-term relationship with the customer. And that complexity goes way beyond just initial integration. It goes into the life cycle of that subscription. So what happens if I want to change my Netflix to get the premium tier? What happens if I want to change the perk? What happens if I want to pause a subscription? What happens if I want to change my overall mobile plan. Every event where there's sort of any change has a ripple effect of these multiparty bundles. They're a great consumer offer, but the complexity of managing those if you're not careful can soon become overwhelming. And that's what -- that's a lot of the work we've done over the past last 12 months or so and continue to do is to take these complex scenarios and make them extremely simple so you can deliver incredible consumer value very, very quickly indeed. And that's where our CapEx and our R&D investments gone, and that's where it goes moving forward. The sort of the core platform investment now is pretty minimal. Matt talked about sort of $1 million for payments. It's probably a couple of million for the Digital Vending Machine. And the rest of that investment is on these features that either generate real revenue, create a stickier customer, allow us to get services faster or reduce our own integration effort. And that's entirely where our focus is. So coming to the end, and then we'll move into sort of Q&A. If you look at sort of outlook, and you will have seen a lot of this if you've been through the trading update we've put out before today. The bulk of the DOCOMO digital traffic is now migrated. That transforms the profitability of that payments business and allows it to be the cash engine it is for the business. It's fair to say it's taken us longer than we'd like or thought to have done those migrations, but now that's largely behind us, and we'll really sort of unlock that business in terms of being the profitability and the cash generation engine for the business that we know it can be. The core transactional business is growing as we would have expected. As Matt said, some of those higher cost of sales routes that we acquired from DOCOMO Digital, there's a volatility in those. So they're sort of currently behind expectations. I said there's minimal impact to EBITDA because of the margin nature of those routes. And we continue to look at how we can take additional cost of sales out of the channel and how we can potentially restructure those routes that maybe result in less revenue, but with a higher quality sort of margin. On the Digital Vending Machine, we've had a great start in 2025. I said earlier, we've done 9 customers -- 9 new customers in 2024. That's about the average over the last 2 or 3 years. It's about 9 a year. So we have 27 customers. We started sort of back end sort of 20. So about 9 or so customers a year is on average what we've done. But already in the first 5 months of this year, we've added 6 new customers. That's a great step forward. It's a big acceleration in that business. I've talked previously about how my frustration has been the long sales cycle. I think we're now benefiting from deals that have been around for a while now coming out of the bottom of the sales funnel. And we're also seeing a sort of increased momentum. And if I sort of pick sort of 3 different geographies sort of give 3 different examples. In the U.S., we've had for a number of years now, 3 out of the top 5 telcos. We now have 6 out of the top 8. So that's a great position to be in. In the U.S. is an interesting market. You sort of have 5 very large providers and then a large sort of second tier and Tier 2 is a big group because some of them have tens of millions of customers, quite sometimes regional broadband providers or regional cable providers that are looking to use bundling increasingly to reduce sort of churn and stop people cutting the core for their cable TV subscription by putting third-party subscriptions on top. And the launch we did with Altice, I think Disney+ as part of their package with Hulu a few weeks ago that you will have seen in the RNS is -- it's a good example of that. So the U.S. is a great position now in that sort of Tier 2, and there's lots of opportunity for us to expand in that marketplace in the U.S. Moving into Asia. We signed our first contract ever in South Korea with one of the leading telcos. They're coming over to Cambridge to do a formal ceremony announcement sort of next week. So you'll see more details on that over the next week or 2. And I think that's really, really important. Korea is a very -- it's a market in many ways like Japan. And Japan is a market we've been in for a long time. And through building up trust and developing, we've built a very strong and dominant position in Japan. And Korea and Japan are very similar traits. It's a very difficult market to enter. Once you're in and you've proven as a trusted partner in that market, the business opportunities given how people pay for goods, how people subscribe to services are really, really exciting. So for us, that's a fantastic position to be in. And certainly, NHN as a shareholder, have been very supportive in terms of helping us developing that business in Korea. And we're really, really proud and pleased to get that first sort of contract over the line. And finally, in Europe, which is, I think, my biggest personal frustration, I think I've shared that in the past. We've seen the first sort of green shoots, if you like, from deals that have been in the sales funnel for some time. We started our first deal in Eastern Europe at the back end of last year. We had a deal in the Benelux region in the start of this year. And I'd say that the first green shoots of a well-developed sales funnel in Western Europe are really starting to flow. And hopefully, we'll see more success as we move throughout the year. And as Matt mentioned on a big focus on efficiency, profitability, sort of cash generation, you'll see we upgraded 2026 EBITDA versus consensus by $1 million, and we've taken $0.5 million out of our R&D CapEx this year, $1 million out of CapEx in 2026. And so you add that sort of EBITDA increase with a reduced R&D CapEx, you can see obviously the cash generation of the business has significantly improved and 2026 is really a year of significant cash generation. Finally, we really appreciate everybody joining today. There's lots of other ways you can keep in touch. We've launched a new investor website called Investor Hub, where you can log in, ask questions, see questions that the people have asked, comment, like things. It's much more sort of social media engaging. It makes it easier for us to manage and answer questions. So please do encourage you to sort of join that. It's a good way of staying up to date with what's happening. It's also a good way of engaging with us in a very simple and easy-to-use way. So really encourage everybody who's on the call to join that. A lot of what we do for sort of our commercial marketing activities, as I said earlier, I think is very relevant for investors. And a lot of that is through LinkedIn, and you can follow Bango, you can follow me. I post on videos and comments and posts and things like that. And there's a lot of all the research and the core research that we publish Bango is on the Bango LinkedIn. So LinkedIn, while those channels are really for us to help us drive business, I think there's a lot of value in there for investors as well. So I'd encourage you all to take a look at those. And with that, Jake, I'll turn it back to you, and we'll head into Q&A.

Perfect. Paul, Matt, thank you very much indeed for your presentation this morning. [Operator Instructions]. Just like to remind you that a recording of this presentation, along with a copy of the slides and the published Q&A can be accessed via your investor dashboard. Guys, as you can see there, we have received a number of questions that were both pre-submitted ahead of today's event as well as those that have made their way through throughout your presentation this morning as well. So firstly, thank you to all of those on the call for taking the time to submit their questions. And Sukey, at this point, if I may just hand over to you to chair the Q&A with the team. And if I pick up from you at the end, that would be great. Thank you.

Thanks, Jake. And a big thank you to everyone who submitted questions. We're always keen to engage and improve understanding of the business. So a big thank you. We've actually -- we've had so many questions, some covering very, very similar themes that I grouped those that are. So we'll ask those to Matt and Paul now. However, just to note, if you do feel that your specific point from your question was missed or wasn't answered to the degree you'd like, then please use the Q&A top right-hand side and make sure you ask and you get the answer that you want. So I'll start with the question around costs and ask that to you, Matt. It's around the DOCOMO Digital acquisition and further action on costs that we're likely to see with the acquisition or other areas.

Sure. So I think in the presentation, I touched on that core admin expenses metric, right, which we saw really good reduction last year between '23 and '24, a little over $7 million and R&D CapEx also reducing in conjunction with that. I think that core admin cost metric, as I said, as I mentioned earlier, is a better way of viewing the cost base. Obviously, admin expenses as it's reported in the statutory accounts can get distorted by D&A and those noncash items. And hence, core admin cost is a better reflection. I think with the efficiency initiatives that we plan to put through this year, we expect another $2 million to $3 million savings in that core admin expenses in FY '25 with a further $1 million of savings in FY '26. and R&D CapEx over that period, I expect to reduce by $3 million. So you can see the real emphasis being placed here on really driving profitability and ensuring we're deploying capital and resources in the appropriate areas.

And on DOCOMO Digital acquisition, Paul, this question is around how the acquired business is developing and when the benefit will drop through to the bottom line?

Yes, good question. Well, firstly, I think you start to see it dropping through to the bottom line, right? If you look at the step-up in EBITDA in the second half of last year, I think that becomes very evident. I understand it's been sort of a gradual thing because we've sort of gradually been reducing costs over the period since we did the acquisition. As a reminder, we did that only at the back end of 2022. It was an acquisition we did for customers. It was never a technology acquisition. We did it particularly for the customers that DOCOMO Digital had, but specifically for that long-term engagement with NTT DOCOMO, who's the largest operator in the largest carrier billing market in the world. So we did it for scale. It immediately made us the #1 integrator for the Google Play Store, the #1 integrator for Amazon, and we were already the sole integrator for Amazon DCB in Japan. And then it gave us that, so to say, that exclusive relationship with NTT DOCOMO for DCB of sort of online services in what is a huge market. So that's what we do. So the plan always was to take these customers and move them on to the Bango platform. I think it's certainly taken longer than we said at the time more than we anticipated. Most of those are not technical challenges. It's logistics and coordination challenges across the hundreds of routes that we've now migrated onto the Bango platform. Once we're on the Bango platform, the cost of any incremental transaction is relatively small, and that's why we sort of get traditionally a very high margin from the DCB, outside of where there's sort of this channel arrangement that Matt talked a little bit about earlier with these sort of high cost of sales routes. And really, the cost of that acquisition, if we look at where it is, it wasn't an acquisition where we paid tens of millions to acquire the business. The cost of the acquisition has been on the inflated cost base that we've had since then. And so it's an unusual acquisition. It's not like there's a big one-off cost for the acquisition that sort of appears on the balance sheet. The cost of this acquisition has really been the inflated expense. And I say you saw our headcount go from 120 up to 360, you'll have seen in Matt slides, we're going to average this year at around 200. That means we'll exit the year at around 180, which is around the right sort of size for us moving forward. So it takes time to do that. You can do that at a certain pace. But I think we're getting -- you're starting to see that come out. It's maybe come out a bit more gradually than people would necessarily have seen. But certainly, you can see it in the EBITDA step up. You certainly see it as increasingly moving forward as the cash and the profitability generated from that transactional business, we get towards sort of 50% EBITDA margins, very minimal CapEx that you'll really start to see that moving forward. And appreciate it's taking a bit longer. But for sure, it was absolutely the right acquisition. I think in hindsight, maybe we didn't explain it initially well or sort of explain some of the challenges at the time, but it's been absolutely the right thing to do to give us scale in that payments business.

Question on outlook and when greatness will be fully achieved by Bango. So the level of the question is when will we see real profits, not adjusted EBITDA.

Yes. So I think I mentioned in the presentation when we were going through the P&L as a whole. So I think the key message really is that bottom line profit, we expect Bango to make a profit from fiscal year '26 onwards. Obviously, we saw a big narrowing in the loss this year, which will continue, but profitability will emerge, we expect in FY '26. I think with the reductions in both OpEx and CapEx, I just touched on cash EBITDA is set to be positive in '25, and then we'll see a meaningful step-up change in FY '26 in that metric when the efficiency initiatives we're putting through come to fruition.

Great. On communications and progress, there's a feeling of little communication around deals and financial -- I mean financial forecast is difficult. So going forward, what are the expectations around this and improvements you're looking to add?

Yes. So on the deal, but I think we share your frustration. There are -- obviously see we did 9 deals last year. We did do 9 announcements. And that's quite often because we're prohibited from doing that by the partners, right, because they're trying to launch a competitive service and differentiate themselves in a competitive market and so somewhat reluctant to highlight the means by which they're doing that to the market. So I sort of share your frustration. We've had some debate about whether we should announce without names. I think our consensus is that's not the right thing to do. And so we tend to bundle those numbers up into the results presentation. But to say with Korea, and particularly, you'll see a lot more detail on that particular win in the next week or so as they look to make that public. There's lots of news flow around deals or new subscriptions on the LinkedIn channel. So I continue to follow those. I think we have, over the last year or 2, particularly got a lot more transparent and added a lot more KPIs. We added ARR in, we add net revenue retention. Matt gave a lot of breakdown today on the different financials. We had a cohort analysis for ARR. We have the transactional split and the growth in the different elements of the transactional business and then show the subscription count hopefully, you see and appreciate that we've added a lot more visibility into the business over time because we appreciate that's important. We have to do that at a pace that makes sense. Some of it is commercially sensitive, so we can make it available at a pace where there's sort of enough scale in it so that it sort of avoids highlighting any particular customers or revealing accidentally sort of any customer status, but there's definitely been, I think, progress on that, and you'll see that as an increasing trend moving forward. So if you've got any particular thoughts or feedback and the investor I hope is a great way to send those in. On access to forecast, there are 2 analysts that cover Bango. It's Canaccord and Singer. I appreciate that you may not have access to those because of some of the rules in the U.K. I think there is a summary of the reports on certain of the Research Tree websites. You can see part, if not all of the reports if you're a Research Tree subscriber. But what we try to do is put a consensus on the website. So you'll see the consensus on the website with -- across those 2 analysts. And so we try to give as much as we can, and we'll look to continually add and improve that. But yes, I understand that, that could be a frustration.

A number of questions around share price. How do you explain the valuation difference between Bango and Boku, to you Matt.

Sure. So I think, I think if you take a step back, I think some of the share price performance will be market-driven. It's well documented that the overall end market has had its challenges. And obviously, there's an element of it that's sort of self-inflicted on Bango. I think in the past, we've done a lot of upfront investment in the Digital Vending Machine, but it's about finding that balance between long-term investment and sort of near-term stability. And I think it's my job really to help focus the company, ensuring we've got that balance right and deploying, as I said before, the capital and resources in the right areas. So I think with a strengthened balance sheet and the sort of the measures that we've sort of put in place with the financings, and I think with the financings, it's important to also add that the revolving credit facility, this is not a term loan. The business just hasn't suddenly taken on $15 million of debt. It's a facility that we could draw as and when we need to and it provides sort of a lot of flexibility. And with those both in place, we've got significant liquidity headroom and really the financial firepower to address what we want to address going forward. And again, sort of to touch on those efficiency initiatives, they are there to deliver cash generation in future years. And putting it all together, we really see an uplift in that cash EBITDA and cash generation going through FY '26. And we've reflected that, I think, in the forecast and what we're saying around the benefits to adjusted EBITDA in next year.

And related question. Do you consider AIM to be the best listing for Bango with fall in the overall end market?

Yes. No, I think Matt touched on kind of the performance, I think the uncertainty we had around IHT, around the budget certainly didn't help. And obviously, the IHT benefit was reduced in the budget. I don't think any of those helped. At the same time, regulation on the mid-market has been reducing. AIM has not reduced. If anything, it's got slightly harder in terms of the regulation. So it's -- I think its future is unclear. I think there's certainly some structural changes, I think, needed to best position AIM, which used to be a great market for fast-growing companies to raise capital, and that's certainly why Bango listed on AIM in the first place. And certainly, that's one of the areas that Ray as Chair is specifically spending some time on. He spent a lot of time with the QCA. He was down with them a few weeks ago in a forum that was reported on the news of discussing the future of AIM and some of the structural changes that are required. In the meantime, we continue as the Board will look at other listing alternatives. And we don't have any firm decisions or plans at this time, but we continue to look at the options. At the same time, I say Ray is spending quite a lot of time helping people understand some of the benefits and get engaged in the discussions that can make AIM a sort of a better market.

And with the current share price, has Bango had any recent takeover approach?

Yes. I mean I think I guess linked to the last bit, right? You've seen lots of companies come off AIM and sort of go private. I think we firmly believe that's not in the best interest of anybody, any of our stakeholders, shareholders, employees, sort of all customers. We really don't think it's in the best interest. As a management team, we're not supportive of that. I think it's pretty easy to go and take it private at 30%, 40% premium. I think we're significantly more undervalued than that. The DVM is making massive progress. We have a balance sheet for growth. DCB will start to generate significant cash. We're not interested in a 30%, 40% increase on the current share price that doesn't increase. And none of us are here for that. We're here for the -- to deliver something great and big and exciting. And I think at the moment, AIM is where we are to sort of deliver that. I guess then you get to the other side of what is a hostile takeover, I think hostile takeovers are quite rare. You talk to most private equity companies, they're all about bringing the management team along with them. And so takeovers that are not supported by the management team do happen, but are rare. I think we're in the fortunate position where we have a strong shareholder register with both the founders, NHN as well as long-term holders like Herald, who have been very supportive of the business. So I think that provides us an element of protection as well.

Matt, a question on why our receivables so high?

Yes, good question. I touched on it a little bit, I think, during the presentation. For certain routes in transactional, Bango sits in the middle of the payment flow. So payment passes from telco to Bango. Bango takes its revenue share and that then passes on to the underlying merchant. So the receivables is naturally inflated because of that dynamic.

Paul, this one to you. Why were annual results published later than in previous years?

Yes. So I think it's a combination of factors. Firstly, I'm going to blame Matt, right? So we had a new CFO. We obviously appointed a new auditor. So BDO, we appointed as a new audit partner that always was a great champion, and we have been through the audit, the first audit is always a little more problematic as they get to know and sort of understand the business. And on top of that, we had a new audit Chair on the Board, right? And Tony, we appointed Tony Perkins who took on the Chair of the Audit Committee in the role. So we sort of have the 3 key actors, if you like, in delivering the audit or something new. So it's taken a little more time. And obviously, the part of Matt coming on board, one of the first things we focused on was delivering sort of a stronger balance sheet, and that's what he's really been working on. And we felt it made sense to bring it all together at the same time, and that's resulted in why you've seen sort of all the because we thought it's best to bring and explain all in one go rather than sort of dribble out sort of bits of news and as they go past over the time. So a combination of all those points together.

A number of questions on competitors. Who are main competitors? How do we differentiate and do we have pricing power?

Yes, good question. So let's take each half of the business. So I think if you look on the payments business, I mean, that's -- there are 2 global players in that market. It's ourselves and Boku. I think our footprint is very different, but there is certainly some overlap, but we are the 2 global players that I think are in that market. We've both done various bits of M&A to sort of consolidate those positions. But it's a very stable market, right? So there is growth, there is things that happen, but it's a very stable market, and that's why it becomes sort of a cash engine certainly for us moving forward. On the Digital Vending Machine side, then our biggest competitor remains sort of people trying to do it themselves. And certainly, a lot of those simple bundles, remember, I talked about that move from simple to multiparty to Super bundle. Where as the simple bundles were done by telcos themselves because it's one content provider, it's one set of integrations. When the value of the DVM really shows when you want to go from 1 to 2 to 3 to 5 to 10, right? That's where we really differentiate. And so we've seen increasingly some of those DIY subscriptions migrate on to the platform. So we did actually 0.5 million subscriptions migrated onto the platform a couple of weeks ago that an operator had previously done directly, but they wanted them all integrated on a single platform. So that continues to be, I think, the biggest sort of competitor. We also had Amdocs out there who have rebranded the sort of market, what used to call market one solution for subscription bundling. I say I think the people we see most and I would say the only people I would say, have a product to compete with us. I use the word a little bit loosely because I think we are very much a product company. We don't like doing customization. We don't invest on things specific for customers. We build products and we build features for everybody to use. With Amdocs, obviously, their business model is quite different. It's very much more of a professional services customization model. But that continues to be where it is. I go back to the T-Mobile story I may have told before, T-Mobile in the U.S. is a combination of Sprint and T-Mobile. They were 2 of Amdocs' largest customers. They merged, they became Amdocs' second biggest one of Amdocs' largest customers sort of overnight. We competed head-to-head in an RFP process for bundling, and we won that and we integrate back into the legacy Amdocs stack. And I think why do we win? It's because of the moats that we have and by the sheer number of content providers that are connected into the platform and also the advanced features that we have like the user interface, like the software management, right? Those are really differentiating features.

Praise for our D&I commitment. However, given the hostility of the Trump government to this concept, are you concerned it will cause problems for U.S. business?

Yes. I mean I think the answer is no. I mean I think Bango is aimed elsewhere, especially over the last sort of 12 to 18 hours or so. I think fundamentally, I think with all the initiatives, we've done what's right and what's the right thing to do, I think some of the churn in the U.S. is people over rotated and are doing things that are sort of detrimental to the business. We've always done the right thing that's right for the business. And a big part of that is diversity inclusion. It's a core part of our values. We believe a diverse team is the best way to get the best results. And so we're focused on delivering the best results. And so I think we've sort of managed it, I think, in the right way that's right for the business rather than it just being something nice to put on a website to claim to investors for us, it's about doing the right thing for the business.

Matt, for you, there's a question on the high percentage of development costs and how that percentage of revenue that takes up. How many years will it take to recover the cost of margin earned?

Yes. So look, the -- if we take a step back, the digital vending machine is a relatively nascent product. It came on to the market in 2020. And I think what Bango has been very good to do is obviously invest upfront and underpin sort of that future growth. So there's been a lot of investment in this product. As Paul mentioned before, initially, that investment is to establish the core product, and now it's about investing to really fine-tune increase revenue per user, improve efficiency on our side to integrate new partners. And that's what we expect to happen. We talked a little bit about the revenue opportunity that we see here. There are big secular trends towards subscriptions, towards bundling, towards super bundling. And Paul has outlined in the past, what we see is the ARR opportunity here. So we can see a payback and a return on that CapEx once that comes through. But naturally, as the product develops more and more, then the pipeline increasingly begins to build, and we've seen that this year with the momentum in the early customers that we've added to the platform at the start of the year. So it's a gradual process. But as I said, going back to what I said before, it's ensuring that we just get the balance right in terms of that investment future versus near term.

There's a follow-on question about what is the steady-state development expenditure that should be expected going forward?

So I think with the migrations completing, we touched on that a little bit earlier around from fiscal year '26 onwards, we see sort of the capitalized R&D for the transactional business being roughly $1 million per year. So that's really sort of driving healthy cash generation in that segment. And then on the DVM side, if you were to strip back all the investment for sort of future growth, I think Paul touched on it earlier, it's -- you're looking at single to mid-digit spend. But the key thing here is really sort of future-proofing that future growth. And so that's why the investment is higher than that.