Container Corporation of India Limited (CONCOR) Earnings Call Transcript

So good morning, everyone. And on behalf of DAM Capital, I would like to welcome you all to the 1Q FY '22 Earnings Call of Container Corporation of India. We have the management today being represented by Mr. V. Kalyana Rama, Chairman and Managing Director, as also his team. I'll now hand over to Mr. Rama for his initial remarks, post which we'll open up the floor for Q&A. Over to you, sir.

Thank you, Bhoomika. So good morning to everyone. So I am here along with all my team, all 4 directors: P.K. Agrawal, Director Domestic; Sanjay Swarup, Director International Marketing; Rahul Mithal, Director Projects; and Manoj Dubey, our Director Finance and CFO. So let me first share with you the happy news that this is the best ever Q1 our company has achieved in the history. So we can safely say that it is -- now the business in this Q1 is better than pre-pandemic level. We have seen growth in both EXIM and domestic volumes. There's a growth of almost 28% in EXIM volumes and very robust growth in domestic volumes, 68% growth. That shows the demand for the -- and consumption in India in the domestic market. So we were always having this strong belief that domestic market is poised for a good growth. And we're always getting ready for that. We bought a lot of containers in the last 3 years. We added almost 24,000 containers in the last 3 years. So that really helped us in picking up all these volumes. Today, our company is having around 37,000 containers, and we are, in fact, now trying to develop the container manufacturing within India so that we'll become self-reliant in India itself. Even in different political situations, we need not depend on imports from China. That work is in progress. This demand in domestic is good for the company because as we have seen traditionally, the total income ratio is 80% from EXIM and 20% from domestic, but that is now changing. Domestic is picking up, and we expect this to become maybe around 70-30 by the end of this year. And we are aiming at making it 60-40 in the coming years, maybe in next 3 to 4 years. We are working on many things, many lines of business. In fact, we recently completed -- we floated a tender and awarded the tender for bulk cement transport, which will start happening from the next FY Q1. That's a good volume of business. It will be almost 0.5 million tonne -- it will be in a year 0.5 million tonnes of bulk cement transportation. That -- the first bulk cement terminal silo is being set up at Coimbatore and there are many possibilities for this to grow all over India. There may be -- this is one sector where good growth will come up. This is what we were talking of transporting commodities in bulk. Food grains we are doing, as I told you in the annual conference call, we already started doing that. We did some around 2 to 3 lakh tonne movement for ITC, and we did some trials for FCI. We hope to see some more traction in this financial year itself in that. As I've given the forecast to you that we will grow 12% in our top line and 100% in bottom line. In Q1, we could see that it is happening. In fact, our top line growth is much better in Q1 because the base was low. But the bottom line, as we -- as I had mentioned to you that 100% growth that we will touch INR 1,000 crores PAT. We got INR 250 crores in Q1. So even maintaining this on a conservative level, we are sure that we'll achieve INR 1,000 crores PAT. But as all of us know, that Q3, Q4 normally are the better quarters in the business. So this may be bettered also. Regarding the LLF, let me tell you, and I want everyone to be more attentive to this so that we can avoid a lot of repetitive questions on this. The LLF, there is complete clarity now. As I mentioned in the annual call, the liability for this year we expected to be INR 450 crores. We provided INR 113 crores in this quarter based on that calculation. But while doing this, we completed another exercise of collecting the land rates from revenue authority, and that has been completed. So reworking, now it is giving us an estimate based on the confirmed rates from the land revenue authorities a figure of INR 375 crores. Friends, so let me tell you that LLF for this year for your company will be -- the liability will be INR 375 crores. So it's -- that also will push up our bottom line. And regarding the taking over of the terminals on a long-term lease by paying the upfront payment, the work is in progress. So there are news items which are coming up and, in fact, in the TV interviews they asked me, I clarified that. It's a wrong media news. There is no objections from any department. All the department concerned in this, the -- Ministry of Railways and CONCOR are all in the same line of thinking. So the work is going on. As all of us know, the government process will take its own time, so procedure has to be followed. So that payment -- onetime payment for all 24 terminals of the railway line is work in progress and it will happen. And the estimate, as we discussed last year, the same thing. Whenever it happens, we will go for a loan, a short-term loan. So things are looking very good, and I hope this financial year will be a good financial year for your company. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] We have the first question from the line of Atul Tiwari from Citigroup.

Yes. Congrats on very good set of numbers and you have -- you anyways have commented on LLF. So just one additional question. What is the onetime payment for 24 terminals based on the new LLF calculation that you have done, INR 375 crores?

See, the onetime payment, as we mentioned, we got cash reserves of INR 2,500 crores to INR 3,000 crores, and we will be going for a loan, which we notified to the exchange of INR 3,500 crores to INR 4,000 crores. So that is in the range of that, INR 6,000 crores to INR 7,000 crores.

The next question is from the line of Pulkit from Goldman Sachs.

Sir, 2 questions. Sir, if I look at your realizations on the EXIM side for the last 3 quarters, there is a marked improvement. Now on a handle basis, we are doing about INR 16,000. Can you highlight specific reasons that are contributing to this? And that -- if they are sustainable? That would be my first question.

They are sustainable, and the reason is that a lot of load running improved and the empty repositioning and empty running is coming down. And also some terminal charges what we imposed is giving us additional margins. We have not increased the freight rates, but we increased our terminal charges for the services what we are providing at our terminals. That is giving us good dividend -- rewards and increased margin.

Sure, sir. So we can expect this number. And my second question is, when I look at your margins on the domestic business also, for the last 2 to 3 quarters, there's a marked improvement there. Any comments on anything being one-off there? Or again, that is something that should be expected to sustain?

So -- see, one thing. First of all, you yourself are telling for 3 quarters you are seeing marked improvement. So if it is a one-off thing, it will be a flash in the light, 1 quarter it will happen. It will happen for 3 quarters, no?

No, sir. But if you attribute a reason to it, it's always easy for us to understand it, right? Because 6 quarters back, even this was higher at a time when we were booking SCI's income, et cetera. So a reason would always be easier for us to understand this.

That's good. That's good question. The reason, I will tell you. So it's not a flash in the pan. It is a regular feature. And the reason is that here also the more and more domestic cargo are picking up. So more loaded traffic will give us more margins. It will cut down on our empty running. Even though an absolute number, empty repositioning cost on domestic side has gone to INR 45 crores. But if you look at the growth, what we achieved, 68%, that proportionately, it is less empty running. We've got more loaded running. And other thing is, we introduced new containers. All new containers what we brought, maximum of them, the last 24,000 I mentioned, that maximum of them, we brought high capacity containers of 34 tonnes, which will -- are carrying 31 tonnes payload. And our rakes also we are upgrading. Earlier, these rakes were having a carrying capacity of 61 tonnes. We are upgrading them to 68 tonnes. And now almost 60% of our fleet is already upgraded. So these things are giving us good dividend. The high-carrying capacity is giving us more margin.

We have the next question from the line of [ Vishal Dhanvi ] from [ Wellquest ].

My question is [indiscernible] lease only. So I wanted to understand that in FY '21 that the new policy introduced that lease will be charged on 6%. So can you tell me what was the cost in Q4 FY '21 for lease? Because if I will compare Q4 FY '21 numbers with Q1 FY '22, there's a huge jump in EBITDA margin, which I think mainly due to lease cost only.

So yes, in Q4, as you may be knowing, we paid something of a backlog of empty payments also, and it was INR 220 crores. So INR 220 crores that we paid towards LLF in Q4, this quarter we are only paying INR 113 crores. So obviously, it will have a good impact on the margin also, there's no doubt about it. But you look at the Q1 to Q1, which was apples-to-apples, and there you'll see there is a marked improvement in the margins for the reasons that clearly mentioned.

Yes, yes. I got it. Basically, I just wanted to understand that in Q4 what happened because in Q4 they were used [indiscernible] that I was knowing that this is impact of lease only. And amount-wise, I was not knowing.

Yes.

Understood. And can you give some light on divestment process also that right now it is at what stage and what is going on over there?

It is work in progress.

And what -- okay, understood.

We can't give much details. It's a work in progress. It will happen.

We have the next question from the line of Vikram Suryavanshi from PhillipCapital.

One is a bookkeeping question about originating volume. And second, sir, we have now seen good traction coming in bulk side of our business. How is the opportunity with this modified wagons for automobile or Ro-Ro, basically, if you can highlight?

Bulk is not about Ro-Ro and automobile. Bulk is moving the commodity without bagging it. So there is a lot of demand for cement to move in bulk. The necessary infrastructure is now -- as I said, is getting created at one other terminal and it may be replicated in other places. In addition to that, we are working on some more things to bring in bulk into containers in a different technology. So -- and food grain in bulk, already we did around 3 lakhs last year, and we got the technology. FCI also is happy with the trials. So that also may happen. This year, we can see some more traction. That's what I mentioned.

I got you, sir. So let me rephrase. So after this bulk, my question was, would we like to diversify into automobile and Ro-Ro?

Automobile, we will not own the wagons. We are already providing our facilities for doing automobile loading, unloading. That will continue. Beyond that, we are not interested in getting into automobile because that's a low-margin business as far as we are concerned because we can't do that value-added services like [ PDIs ] and all that. Regarding Ro-Ro, yes, Ro-Ro is not possible under our many routes. But on the DFC, Ro-Ro, if it is possible and if we see traction, we will be definitely entering into the Ro-Ro business on DFC.

Understood. And originating volume, sir, for this quarter.

Originating volumes, what, you want for the Q1?

Yes, sir.

Q1 is 0.529 million. PSO is 0.083 million. Total is 0.612 million.

The next question is from the line of Ajinkya Bhat from Macquarie.

Sir, just one question. You mentioned about domestic manufacturing of containers. So the question is, when you procure the domestically manufactured containers, is it significantly cheaper than Chinese imports? And would there be a savings on capital expenditure from that angle? Or is it predominantly to reduce import dependence but not clearly material financial benefit from that? If you could clarify on that?

See, there may not be financial gains in that because that -- in a container -- one container costs around INR 2.8 lakhs. If we import last we got -- it costed us as something like that and in India also we may be getting at the same level. So the main important thing is the self-reliant of India and the AatmaNirbhar Bharat, what government is talking of. So in different political situations, we may face problems sometimes of importing or giving contracts to other countries. So we will be seeing a robust growth in domestic business. And also because we now introduced containers as warehouse which is picking up very fast, we will be requiring more containers. So we need containers. We want to make a self-reliant India for container manufacturing.

And how much would be the procurement, let's say, over the next 3 years or 5 years? Any plans you have on that front?

[Foreign Language] We said this 8, 000 containers every year for next 5 years.

Okay. Okay, sir. And just final question, sir. You have now successfully forayed into transportation of bulk commodities through containers. We have seen that in food grain, now cement. Any more opportunities on the cards, say, fertilizers or, I don't know, iron ore or anything else?

Iron ore and coal is not allowed as on date to move in containers by Railways. But other commodities, we are already doing bulk transportation of caustic soda.

[indiscernible]

What is that? Soda ash. Soda ash, we are doing. Industrial salt, we are doing. We are doing raw material for Colgate paste and tooth powders. So all these things are happening. There are many commodities. But I mentioned the major commodities where there will be good volume, is cement and food grain.

The next question is from the line of Atul Tiwari from Citigroup.

Sir, just a booking question on lead distances. If you could share the EXIM and the domestic lead distances for the quarter?

EXIM is 704, domestic is 1,377.

The next question is from the line of Pulkit from Goldman Sachs.

Sir, this is on LLF. When we say that LLF will come down to INR 370 crores, so is this our assessment or this is a number that is vetted by Indian Railways as well?

As of now, it is our number. But when we give the numbers we know that the number is based on some valid document with a certainty. So there is no vetting process in this. Even earlier also, there is no vetting. It is more of a mutual consultation happens. If there is a difference of opinion, then the decision is based on documents. As I mentioned, we got our documents very clear. So as per that, this is...

Sure, sir. Sir since I've got the opportunity, maybe I'll ask one more question. Sir, any sense on any possible tariff hikes? Any possible tariff hike one could look at in the near term?

We are looking for volumes and maintaining the growth part and we've got very good margins now. So maybe immediately we are not looking at any freight rate hikes. This quarter, we ended with 2% operating margin.

The next question is from the line of Koundinya from JM Financial.

Sir, just trying to understand. When I look at the financials, there is a sharp reduction in other expenses and other operating expense as well. So can you help me understand this better, please?

So other expenses, there is onetime item. Last year, if you recall, we contributed a lot to PM CARES Fund for this COVID thing. So last year, INR 25 crore booking was there that the company under CSR gave it to PM CARES Fund. So this year, that is not there. So that is one of the important items which is bringing it down by nearly INR 20 crores.

Understood, sir. Sir, and sorry for repeating this question. There was disturbance in the line when you answered this. Sir, what is the onetime calculation total amount that you're speaking about? What is the amount exactly?

LLF?

Yes, sir, with respect to LLF.

LLF?

Yes.

So I clearly mentioned, it will be around INR 375 crores.

No, sir. I'm speaking about the onetime amount that we have to pay to acquire the lease?

Onetime amount is, it will be anywhere between INR 6,000 crores to INR 7,000 crores.

The next question is from the line of Mukesh Saraf from Spark Capital.

My first question is with regards to the Indian Railways permitting the 25-tonne axle load now for the wagon. So just wanted to kind of check with you how this can benefit us in terms of margins or probably market share or double stacking? What's your sense on this, sir?

See, 25 tonnes when they permit, the carrying capacity on the wagon will go to around 80 tonnes. So that will improve the possibilities of double stacking. So we'll be carrying more load on a same asset, otherwise which we are carrying at 68 tonnes. That will definitely improve our margins. So this is now available only on DFC route. And let me share with all of you, everybody may please listen, that DFC started functioning from yesterday night. So the train operations started and our terminal -- major terminal, Kathuwas, is connected to DFC yesterday night. So there, we will definitely get the benefit of running 25-tonne axle load wagons, and we got that -- those wagons we already got 12 rakes with us, 25-tonne axle load. And this year, we will be procuring something like 48 rakes. So by the end of this year, we will have around 48, 50 rakes of 25-tonne axle load with us. So this will give us more opportunity to do more double stacking and also to increase the loading in domestic also maybe because we can club domestic EXIM containers together, bring in so many opportunities out there. Let's see.

Right. And so 48 rakes is what we are planning to procure this year, sir, additional?

Yes, yes. Already 12 rakes we got. These are all new wagons, 25-tonne axle loads.

Right, right. And secondly, sir, we were also hearing that some of the large shipping lines, they are trying to kind of push rail over road on the export direction in the last, say, 2, 3 months. So have you seen any of this benefiting our rail volumes? And how do you see this go ahead in the future?

This will go up. See, there is definitely growth in the exports. So we could -- you could see the volumes this quarter itself that we did more volumes. It's not that on the low base of last year quarter 1. But even otherwise also, this is the best volume in any quarter. We touched almost 1 million tonnes [indiscernible] throughput in this quarter. Just short by 9,000. Otherwise, we were there at 1 million TEU throughput, 991,000 something we did. So -- and with the DFC, the lead -- the running time will come down. From Delhi to Mundra, the running time of 72 hours may come down to 40 hours. So that will definitely attract more and more traffic onto rail.

Okay. Okay. And just lastly, bookkeeping, the interest cost in this quarter has gone up sequentially. So have we already taken...

We are a debt-free company. So you need not read too much into this. These are our IND-AS figures. We have no debt on our balance sheet.

Sure. Just wanted to check that we have already taken that INR 3,000-odd crores debt off. Sure.

The next question is from the line of [ Vishal Dhanvi ] from [ Wellquest ].

Sir, my question is on the line on these other expenses thing only. So you have mentioned that we have paid INR 25 crores which is a onetime thing to or -- hello?

Yes, yes. Go ahead. Please go ahead.

Yes. We have mentioned that to PM we have paid INR 25 crores related to that COVID and there was a payment of INR 220 crores of lease which is INR 113 crores during this quarter. So extra INR 100 crores is all there. So total extra payment is INR 125 crores. But the difference which we are seeing in other expense is approximately INR 250 crores to INR 260 crores. So can you highlight some other costs also which was either onetime or which will not impact now?

I think you have not perhaps attended the Q4 results. There were INR 74 crore provision for staff also regarding this PRMS Fund, that is Post Retirement Medical Scheme fund. So that was also there, that gap that you were mentioning. So adjustment was -- that provisioning was also done in the last quarter. And then again, there was a INR 46 crore provision for service tax dues that we may expect from the Railways which we did not pay in the earlier regime of LLF system before GST. So these 2 provisions of INR 74 crores and INR 46 crores were also part of Q4 provisioning.

Okay. Understood. So if I will remove all these things, then adjusted EBITDA will be at same level. Understood, okay.

Deepika Mundra from JPMorgan.

Sir, firstly, on EBITDA, first...