DeFi Technologies Inc. (DEFI) Earnings Call Transcript

Hi, everyone, and welcome to the DeFi Technologies 2025 Quarter 2 Financials Review and Shareholder Call. I'm Curtis Schlaufman, VP of Marketing and Communications. On the call, we have CEO, Olivier Roussy Newton; President, Andrew Forson; CFO, Paul Bozoki; and Co-Founder, Johan Wattenstrom. I'm going to read a forward-looking statement to get started, and then we'll get the webinar rolling. Certain information set forth in this presentation contains forward-looking information, including future-oriented financial information and financial outlook under applicable securities laws collectively referred to as forward-looking statements. Except for statements of historical fact, the information contained herein constitutes forward-looking statements and includes, but is not limited to, projected financial performance of the company, completion of and the use of proceeds from the sale of shares being offered here under, the expected development of the company's business, projects or joint ventures. These statements are not guarantees of future performance or undue reliance should not be placed on them. Such forward-looking statements necessarily involve known and unknown risks and uncertainties, which may cause actual performance and financial results in future periods to differ materially from any projections of future performance or results expressed or implied by such forward-looking statements. So done with that, I'll give you a little overview of how this is going to go. We'll start with some statements from the exec team here, starting with Olivier, and we'll move on with Paul. with an overview of the financials, and then Johan will give a brief overview on our 2025 financial guidance. We'll then open it up and take some retail questions from the Q&A and then invite our analysts on live to ask additional questions and wrap it up from there. So with that, I'll hand it off to our CEO, Olivier Roussy Newton.

Thanks, Curtis, and thanks to everyone who has joined on this Friday in the summer. Q2 2025, and Curtis, I'll let you flip on to the slide. Q2 2025 showed us what our platform, specifically all of our business units combined can deliver in a softer market. We reported adjusted revenues of USD 32.1 million, adjusted EBITDA of USD 21.6 million and adjusted net income of $17.4 million. The takeaways of all of this are pretty simple. Our model scales, prints cash and performs across market conditions. As a company, speaking with kind of Johan, my co-Founder and the team yesterday, I mean in detail before we filed our financials, I still believe we're extremely early in our growth story, with the flywheel of all of our subsidiaries acquired or incubated and each business line is reinforcing the others. For Valour, our kind of largest business unit, which is specifically operating in the asset management space, demand continued to build with net inflows every month year-to-date, totaling USD 77.4 million for the first half. AUM ended Q2 at USD 772.8 million and reached USD 947 million by July 31. In Q2, Valour generated USD 6.9 million in staking and lending income and USD 2.1 million in management fees. We also launched 14 new ETPs, keeping us on track with our target of 100 listed products by year-end, which would make us the largest issuer of digital asset structured products on regulated stock exchanges. Outside Europe, Andrew has done a tremendous job and effort in terms of pushing our global expansion. Outside of Europe, we're continuously expanding in Europe, but we are in the final phases of regulatory approval in Kenya in both Turkey and are targeting other markets in Asia, LatAm, and we'll let Andrew elaborate on that further into the presentation. Stillman Digital, which was acquired, I believe, October of last fiscal year, has been a great acquisition. Q2 revenue was USD 1.9 million. Stillman also completed its integration in Talos, deepened capabilities in FX and a large focus of Stillman has been market making and providing liquidity for stablecoins as that market segment becomes one of the largest digital dollar-based stablecoins and the availability for that. So we see that as a significant potential growth area. They also added some great senior trading talent. In our DeFi Alpha business, we executed a high conviction, low-risk trade in May with $17.3 million in returns and maintain a 0 loss track record since inception, which was, I believe, we've been operating for about a year and 3 months now that we incubated DeFi Alpha. Neuronomics, which was recently, 4 or 5 months ago, acquired the majority stake of Neuronomics. We've been a shareholder of Neuronomics for around 3 to 4 years. We see them as one of the leading and pioneering companies in artificial intelligence and specifically applying AI to the digital asset sector, which they've done for 4 to 5 years now and traditional equities for almost 10. They completed the development and testing of smart crypto, which we'll have more news about shortly and will open subscriptions for institutional and qualified investors in early September. Neuronomics also secured a validator note on the Canton Network, which is a fast-growing blockchain, positioning us to participate directly in institutional-grade tokenized assets. Reflexivity, which is our research unit that complements all of our customers at Valour with leading-edge information on all the alternative -- primarily alternative crypto coins that they're kind of buying and trading. So that is kind of the main focus, but they've expanded distribution into platforms such as Baluga, BlockWire and CoinMarketCap, which is, I believe, the largest trafficked digital asset website globally. And we are building new events and newsletter sponsorships alongside a brand upgrade in institutional clients. So that kind of comprises all of our companies within the DeFi Technologies' umbrella. Moving kind of to our balance sheet. We remain well capitalized with USD 26.4 million in cash and $26 million in digital assets with a combined $52.4 million as of June 30. We are in the process of renewing our NCIB, which is the Canadian terminology for share buyback program that we will utilize to buy back kind of what we see as an undervalued share for our financial performance as a company. What the rest of 2025 looks like, we've raised outlook. Based on the current performance and market conditions, we raised 2025 annualized operating revenue guidance to USD 218.6 million more listings in new markets. We expect additional ETPs listings in the coming months with a robust pipeline through 2025 and into 2026. As I mentioned before, on track for 100 years, 100 products by year-end. We're also expanding into Africa, Asia, Middle East, other regions within Europe, United Kingdom. And as I mentioned, final phases of regulatory approval, execution will continue. And all of these new geographies come on stream. It is a bit of a longer process, but regulatory approvals in all of these jurisdictions, market making, FX partnerships make it all happen. And I'll let Andrew, as I mentioned, elaborate further on that. And -- and yes, I think that sums up most of this. We've also kind of -- I think we'll have more information coming shortly on our newest business line, DeFi Advisory that uses our kind of expertise in trading technology, market making, OTC for public companies that are managing digital assets. So you'll see more news surrounding that. And to conclude, we're encouraged to see a structural upgrade in our shareholder base. Since early July, we've welcomed and reported 89 additional institutional investors and funds, bringing us to 95 institutional owners representing over 33 million shares. Despite recent share price action, the register is deepening with longer horizon capital. And I firmly believe it's an indicator of a quiet rotation of our shareholder base away from retail driven towards institutions that are welcoming digital asset companies. And yes, to kind of conclude, put simply, I think we're delivering now and building sustainable value for the long term. And we're keen on being one of the leanest revenue-producing companies in the digital asset space listed on the NASDAQ. I'll pass it over to you, Paul.

Thank you, Olivier. So starting with the presentation currency. Beginning with the second quarter of 2025, DeFi changed its presentation currency to the U.S. dollar to better meet the needs of our U.S. investor base following our successful NASDAQ listing in May. In terms of AUMs, DeFi closed June 30 with AUM of $773 million. Q2 average AUM decreased to $748 million from the $780 million in Q1 due to negative cryptocurrency price movements on our alternative coins. However, cash inflow into our ETPs remained strong with positive Q2 inflows of $27 million, bringing total inflows for the 6 months ended June 30 to $77.4 million. In terms of revenue, our Q2 IFRS revenue of $13.4 million brought our cumulative IFRS revenues for the 6 months ended June 30 to $57.1 million. The company's revenue guidance for the 6 months ended June was $62.5 million, thus the actual revenue shortfall was $5.5 million or 8.7% due to DeFi Alpha trading revenues deferred into the second half of 2025. The minor miss was due to DeFi Alpha revenues being lower than planned in the first half. The company reminds investors that these trades are opportunistic and may not be realized on a straight-line basis, but we reiterate that we do have a strong pipeline. Our IFRS reported revenues also include the effect of a movement in the discount of lack of marketability provision, DLOM. The acquisition of 18.7 million locked SUI tokens as part of our Q2 DeFi Alpha trade and crypto price increases on our existing locked Solana and AVAX coins, the DLOM increased by $18.7 million in the quarter and brought the total DLOM provision to $74 million. I remind everybody that, that $74 million DLOM provision will unwind over the locked period of the coins, which goes until 2028. So it will come back into income and increase our equity. Talking about AUM monetization. Our Q2 effective realized staking income was 3.6% on the average $748 million AUM. We staked 72.5% of our AUM during Q2. Staking revenue decline is due to the notable drop in on-chain activity, particularly on the Solana network. lower average prices of key assets Ethereum and Solana, which were both down about 20% quarter-over-quarter, lower protocol reward rates in Q2 versus Q1, protocol inflation and reward reductions across Solana, 4.4% down from 4.6% in Q1 and similar down reductions for TON Coin, Polygon and NEAR. Inflation reductions lead to lower baseline reward rates resulting in lower staking yields. We also redeemed 71.6% of our unlocked coins within one of our equity investments in digital assets, which resulted in some of the coins becoming unstaked at the end of Q2. Our effective staking income earned for the full 6-month period ended June 30 was 4.3% Our effective management fee yield earned during Q2 was 1.1%, down slightly from the 1.3% earned in Q1 due to positive price performance of Bitcoin and Ethereum, where we earn management fees of 0. People remember, we earned a headline rate of 1.9% on most coins, but Bitcoin and Ethereum 0. So the effective rate was 1.1% in Q2. This brings our total effective AUM monetization being staking income and management fees in Q2 to 4.7%, down from 6.2% in Q1 due to the factors noted above on lower staking yields. Average AUM monetization for the 6 months ended June 30 was 5.5%. Our adjusted EBITDA came in at 21.6%, reflecting a strong focus on profitability. Adjusted EBITDA includes adjustments to add back the noncash DLOM and noncash share-based comp. In terms of the balance sheet, the company focuses on maintaining balance sheet strength. We ended Q2 with $26.4 million in cash to provide ample liquidity to meet our obligations. In terms of new investments, the company's venture portfolio consists of 8 private investments with the largest investment being our 5% stake in Amina Bank. Amina Bank continues to perform exceptionally well, growing its revenues and AUM while maintaining strong fundamentals. Readers can find additional detail on its performance in our press release and our MD&A. And lastly, to just reiterate what Olivier said, during Q2, we did repurchase 675,900 shares and returned $1.9 million to investors, and we are in the process of renewing our NCIB to continue doing so. I'll pass it over to Johan.

Right. I give some color on the dip in monetization for Q2. And I would say that absolutely nothing has changed on the downside in terms of rather the opposite. We have strengthened our ability to monetize the AUM to date as of today. The dip during Q2 was due to the composition of our assets and the market. As Bitcoin dominance was up at 65% during Q2. It's down since that level. And now we've seen the out coins being stronger and stronger. Obviously, Bitcoin Ethereum, especially Bitcoin remains the lowest yields for us, both in terms of management fees and in terms of staking, lending yields. And the reason we have upped our full year forecast is that as the market is today, the strong performance in the last few weeks not the least for alt coins has put us in a much stronger position to higher the monetization rate to all-time highs, hopefully within this quarter because of the composition of our AUM. So it's simply a function of the -- what AUM we have in each of our 50 underlying assets and what assets are driven and taking what percentage of the portfolio as a function of market prices. And those conditions were at worst, I would say, possible scenario in Q2. If you look at a few years back, Bitcoin dominance has been between 40% and 60%. It was at 65% during Q2 and has come down below 60% now and alt coins are performing more and more stronger. This obviously leads to our basket of assets having a much better composition for us and allowing us to have a much higher average yield and monetization on our portfolio. On the full year forecast, there's obviously 2 components. We have the core business, we have the Alpha trades. And on the Alpha trade side, that account for like communicated at the last call for around half of the forecast. And we have even higher conviction of that coming to fruition. Not the least that's our higher AUM in the assets where we can do these trades, which compose of our pipeline has grown in terms of AUM and our capacity to do these trades. That's on the DeFi Alpha side. Nothing has changed in our full year forecast for what we will be able to execute. And in terms of the monetization rate, it's already up significantly from Q2, and we continue to see that trend following through as our asset composition has changed and product mix has changed to the better. Yes, I think that concludes the change -- the returns we've seen and why we are very optimistic right now. So nothing has changed on the downside. Rather, we believe that this mechanism obviously, will be to our advantage now when the market -- what we believe is a continuous strong market for the year. So yes, that concludes my color on the forecast for the year.

Thank you, Johan. And I'd also like to remind folks that over the past 6 quarters, we've raised the guidance. And initially, we do aim to offer what we view or Johan views as conservative guidance. I believe at the end of 2023, we offered guidance of around $60 million in revenue. We ended up at the end of the year at $144 million in revenue. That's if we're not taking into account all the messiness of the DLOM. So we've continually raised guidance, and we've exceeded those numbers, and we expect to do that again. And with that, let's open it up to some questions from our shareholders. If you want to type in the chat, you can and we can -- I can pick out a few. And then we'll invite analysts to come on and participate as panelists. We'll have an open forum for questions for them. All right. I've not seen any questions in the chat.

I'll just invite and Ed. If you're an analyst, please raise your hand and I'll invite you to a panelist. Cool. Let's open it up with Mike, I think you're on mute. We can start with there. Yes. Mike, we can start with you. Go ahead and ask any questions you have questions.

My first question is your guidance now of USD 218 million. Can you help us bridge that? What number are you using for the first 6 months of the year? And what are the big drivers to get you to USD 218 million for the full year? I'll start with that.

Yes. I think the simple answer there is that when we did the guidance last time, our market -- the portfolio composition was different, which actually projected a lower monetization rate for the rest of the year because of the market action we've seen in a lot of the big AUM assets for us. It gives us in a much better position at the moment for generating more yield from our base business. Also, the pipeline for our Alpha trades, they are -- the alpha trades we have are measured for us in coins and the value has gone up in those prospective trades we have in our pipeline. So given that we can execute the same amount of trades, which we have a high conviction of for the year that we forecasted early on, those trades will be higher dollar value if even be the same amount of coins. And that's basically it.

Okay. So just paraphrasing that a little bit, but what's the 6-month U.S. dollar revenue number? I just want to understand the starting point. And then what I think you're saying, Johan, is most of this is going to be Alpha trades. Like I think in U.S. dollars, we're at like $6 million or maybe for 6 months, we're at like $12 million or $13 million in staking and $4.5 million in management fees. So maybe that annualizes to about USD 30 million. So the rest is really coming from trading activity.

Yes. If you look at the dip we had in Q2 for fees for management fees and for staking rewards, I don't have it on the top of my head, but I would think that if I recall correctly, -- the average daily AUM was at a significantly lower level than our AUM is at now. There also has been some developments that -- there are assets now that we can monetize from now that we couldn't monetize historically at all, like for Ripple, for instance, where we will get 7%. We didn't get anything historically and so forth. So I would say that at these levels, the staking and management fees rewards would be just 30% higher, just given the market level and the market composition for -- at present. So we will see a much higher monetization rate if this market continues. Obviously, that's the assumption here. And for the Alpha trades, it's the same number of coins for the same trades in the pipeline that we guided on before, but it's a higher dollar value because of the higher values of those tokens, higher value where we are exploring those trades. So it's correct that a big part of this would be obviously, the Alpha trade similar to last year. And as we have discussed, I guess, in a lot of calls historically and also in these calls, unfortunately, it's not super easy to pin down when those will occur on a quarterly basis. But on a yearly basis, obviously, we have a high conviction that they will occur. So -- and obviously realize that from your side, it's much easier to model and forecast staking yields, management fees and so on. And we also try to look on how we can communicate that better. So the AUM composition is more clear. But I think that will give a lot of insight in the dynamics of the monetization yield. And you can see, for instance, that if we earn x amount on Solana in staking yields in MEV yields -- in MEV fees and transaction and in the management fees and also in market making in those assets because that's also another revenue generator, then it will be much easier for you to follow, yes, from the levels of -- the price levels of those assets, what our composition of the AUM is and derive what earnings rate we are at.

Yes. I think it's important to emphasize that we're not only with Valour specifically, we're not only making staking fees and management fees, but also trading fees and market making fees as well. So Johan and team have monetized effectively that issuance structure from -- in every facet where we're squeezing margin from every area we can.

Another line item that I think will make it easier for analysts to forecast once we can publish it, hopefully, that would be quite soon, is the money we generate at liquidity provision in market making. And right now, that's part of the realized and unrealized profit and losses from all trading activities and all positions.

It would be great if you could break that out.

Yes, because that's definitely something that's easy to model because it's -- the -- our margins -- net margins are very stable over time, but they correlate strongly with the turnover on our products on the stock market, which also is very highly correlated to the turnover in the crypto market. So I think then you would get also a lot of super important input for your models as well to increase accuracy.

Cool. Well, just one more question. We've been waiting for you guys to expand into Africa, Asia and the Middle East. What are still some of the roadblocks to getting into those regions?

Andrew?

Yes. If I may, it's less -- it's not actually a matter of roadblocks. It's a matter of dotting the Is, crossing the Ts. As a case in point, this morning, I was on a call at 5:00 a.m. Eastern Time with the Capital Markets Authority of a particular jurisdiction. So many jurisdictions for political reasons, for instance, they would like to know where are the underlying assets of the ETPs custodied. And they want to do something like find out, is there a way to get it, for instance, custodied in their country. And in that regard, since Valour is vertically integrated, we manage the custody, so we explain this process to them. We have to understand that the digital asset space, while it's quite advanced in terms of regulatory environments within our countries, Western Europe, Canada and the U.S. In the others, there's somewhat of an education process. In all of these markets, we're more than advanced. In many of these markets, we're actually in the process of doing, I'll almost call them book generation or presales. But I think it's something that I've said to Curtis recently. Going forward, we want to be very conservative about how we announce and when we announce and that when we do make announcements, it's almost like over delivery. So we want to make sure that all the conditions are right before we talk about what's going to happen. But the appetite is actually quite strong for our products, not only the digital asset products, but other products that our infrastructure will permit. And the expansion, it does continue in various regions of the world. Obviously, East Africa is a big one. With regards to the Kenya Digital Exchange, the technology there has actually been assembled and developed, and we're actually just in some final legal stuff. And it's sort of unfun to have this particular discussion during the Q2 call because August is a huge holiday month in many parts of the world. So that means governments, in particular, are not as present in these months, but we are moving right along, definitely in East Africa, as mentioned, I think there'll be some pleasant surprises there. Latin America, we've had some great progress there. Asia, we've had great progress as well.

And you want to move on to Michael Kim.

Just first, in terms of product development, just curious to get your perspective from maybe more of a broader strategic approach. It seems like you've got opportunities to launch existing strategies into newer geographies on the one hand as well as coming to market with newer, more innovative strategies. So just curious to kind of get your perspective on the broader approach, if you will.

I can give a first comment there on something that has been kind of becoming quite clear the last few months here that the decision we made to be the leading asset manager in this space in regards of number of assets, number of products has shown to have a lot of synergies with other new initiatives we have on products. Because we have such a complete universe of investable securities in the digital asset space, we have been approached and had a lot of really deep discussions with major global banks about building products on top of our product portfolio. And those includes UCITS funds, which are in high demand from institutions in Europe, Latin America and other places of the world. Also on the structured product side, where there's large banks that use their own distribution, construct the structured products based on our assets because it's not allowed in most jurisdictions to do these types of products directly on crypto assets, whilst we can offer a full investment universe to build these products out of. So that's also -- corresponds very well with our initiatives to launch our own UCITS fund in Europe and also do so with our own structured products for 3- to 5-year term structures in some key markets. But we were obviously pleasantly surprised to see a lot of demand from large institutions with their own distribution networks to start building exclusively on our products, which obviously will feed into our AUM. And I think that that's a great receipt for us that we made the right decision in terms of how we build our portfolio and develop the products on top of this. It will not only be our product developments, but also the product developments of major banks and new jurisdictions on top of what we already have. So that's one interesting point, I think.

I'd love to add on to this because this is where I really think the strategic future and vision of Valour and the founders of Valour and DeFi Tech comes into play. We are being reached out to by not only global banks, some multilateral development banks and actual exchanges that have a sovereign basis. And what they like about us is that we have the ability to create instruments that hybridize digital assets with traditional assets on the same infrastructure. So whenever people think about Valour, they're thinking about the limitations of digital assets. But I mean, notwithstanding the fact that we have the broadest portfolio of digital asset ETPs in the world, people are reaching out because we also currently today, have a very, very broad distribution of instruments listed on a number of premier exchanges. So I think that, that's a significant area for expansion. And the fact that more and more in the real-world asset space, you're seeing linkages between digital assets and traditional assets, this is a position that we are already there. We are already leading effectively in the real-world asset space, and it doesn't actually require too much modification of what we already do in order to expand with significant products there. And I can say without a doubt, I'll call it, our R&D initiative has us working with sovereign level exchanges on creating innovative products over the last few months. And we're -- I'm really excited about that.

Got it. That's super helpful. Appreciate the color there. Just -- and then maybe just one other question. In terms of the new advisory business, can you frame sort of the pipeline or the opportunity more broadly, just given all the public companies that are seemingly transitioning to digital assets, treasury strategies. It just seems like there's a lot of pent-up demand there.

Well, I think I can give a quick take at that. I think I was a recent import from a foundation from Hadera. And what you'll find is DeFi Technologies is uniquely placed to solve a lot of foundation problems. And every single token that you hear of out there has a backing foundation that normally has liquidity-related issues. They not only have liquidity-related issues, they're also very interested in figuring out how to get their tokens into the hands of most people, more people, particularly institutions because a lot of institutions can't touch them. And they're actually also really interested in figuring out what are the best revenue-generating projects to invest in. Now the one thing that DeFi Technologies has been exceedingly good at doing is actually finding projects in the digital asset space that generate revenue, either in the stablecoin space, either in the liquidity provision space. And a lot of these foundations actually want in on these types of projects. So whenever you combine our ability to bring liquidity to foundations that are somewhat hamstrung in terms of what they can do with their tokens, when you combine the fact that we have a very, very broad exposure. So a foundation can only look at their own token. I mean, could you imagine if Polygon or some other foundation started dealing in another chain's token, that would be politically suboptimal. But in our case, since we have connections and all, it gives us the ability to provide broader solutions and linking them with the capital markets. So in that way, the DeFi advisory isn't even a service line we had to make. It is something that was more of a demand pull. And I mean, myself, I think this is an okay thing to say, there have been 3 foundations that are begging us to provide them with particular solutions that I never reached out to. And these solutions are quite easy for us to deliver on either in terms of provision of liquidity, defining new ETPs, assisting with establishing almost like a corporate venture capital portfolio and having novel yield-generating strategy companies because a lot of them have determined that, having a pure buy and hold with no revenue model strategy company is actually suboptimal. So they're trying to figure out how can they get productive assets together with their native assets to deploy strategy companies that would have more value, and we're well positioned for that.

And I think just touching on just the brief synopsis of advisory in general. We did announce our first deal a few weeks ago with NVVE. This is, I call it a digital asset treasury in a box. I think somebody termed that Matt Sigel from VanEck. I saw him use that. So we're -- we want to work with partners or public companies that we can -- we see as really partners or leverage in a commercial way as well. And implement digital asset treasury strategies that we think are sustainable and long term using only tokens that we have high conviction in. As I mentioned, one deal in the pipeline. We have a couple of others that we'll announce over the coming weeks and months and looking to add into that or our way to take advantage of this sort of BMO catalyst in the industry right now. And we're taking either -- we're taking a percentage of the AUM in either a flat rate in cash or equity from that perspective.

I'd love to add one more thing. I mean I'm trying to hide my excitement about this. But it's really incredible because it's not mutually exclusive. And what I mean by that is a lot of these foundations are looking for multiple options. So the fact that we exist, we can provide a structure, but it doesn't mean it locks out other participants in providing a structure. Where we have a real advantage is it's soup to nuts, right from origination, right from token -- right from the token, we're able to go directly to the capital markets. And that's something that the Web 3 space, I mean, back when I was doing VC in the Web 3 space, we used to talk about like Web 3 math because their valuations were really, really wonky and they would have a hard time bringing capital into their projects. Well, this is where DeFi Technologies excels, right? So it's -- to me, it's super exciting, and it's definitely useful for the foundations.

Appreciate all the additional color on the guidance. I just kind of wanted to hone in on, I guess, DeFi Alpha. You talked about how this year, some of these deals are taking a little bit longer than you initially expected at least the first half of the year. I guess what kind of gives you conviction that this can all kind of happen in the second half of the year? And I guess, do you see any risk that some of these deals can maybe slip into next year?

It's obviously extremely hard to say if any of these deals will slip into next year. Obviously, we're working super hard to make sure they happen within this year and sooner rather than later. And I would say each and every of the deals we are working on in our pipeline. There's different triggers for all of them. There might be some who do not want to execute before the price is at a certain level. I think we have not really forecasted to be able to do all the trades in our pipeline, but rather, I think, 65% of them because there's always something that falls off. So I wouldn't say it's an overly optimistic forecast. And I wouldn't say it has necessarily taken a longer time with any of these than the trades we already executed. It's always negotiations and back and forth and depends also a bit -- the appetite depends a bit on the market conditions. In Q2, when the market came down for a lot of these tokens, there was a few of these that wanted to delay a little bit. And I think that was to be expected. But I wouldn't say that any of these deals have been worked on for much longer than expected or the deals we actually have executed. So it's -- yes, these are deals where we have a very strong relation to the other, the counterparty and there's a strong will from both parties to do it. There might be some technicalities. There might be some incentive for some people to wait because of bad market conditions during Q2. But yes, as I think I mentioned also, I think some of these might be much higher value because of the higher price levels we see now. And we don't -- I don't assume we will do all of them, even though we hope to do 100%, but if we do 65% of them, we will be able to reach target. Yes, it's -- yes, on an individual basis on each of these trades, it's -- I would say we have around 15 of these trades that we could do and hope to do this year. We don't think we'll do all of them, but that's not in the forecast either.