Entain Plc (ENT) Earnings Call Transcript

Good afternoon, everybody, and thank you all for dialing in. And I'm delighted to have on the call from GVC, which we'll still call GVC at the moment until shareholders approve Entain, CEO, Shay Segev; and IR, David Lloyd-Seed. And I guess we all know how these calls work. [Operator Instructions] The call will take 45 to 50 minutes. I mean amazingly, you've sent -- some people have sent in some brilliant questions. So thank you very much for that. And keep sending them in if you want to join the call. And without further ado, I'll hand over to Shay. And maybe, Shay, maybe just give a brief summary of what you talked about last Thursday at your CMD before we get into a bit more detail with the questions.

Yes. Great, great. Let me go for it. Yes. So we -- so last week, we -- I announced -- first, again, let's talk about the symbolic piece of it, but I think it's critical as well, a new corporate identity for the business. We're launching the business under a new name, Entain, which resembled the journey that actually we believe we've been on anyway. But actually, it's better and much more important. It's something which is much more embedding the future journey that we are on as well to become leading and to [ revolut ] the entertainment sector in the space of gambling. And we believe we are already the leader. But we see as a leader, we have further responsibility as well to continue and innovate and do -- and then take this industry and continue to invest into it and take it to even a better place. And we believe this new, fresh start would give us this momentum. And if I want to get into the -- a bit more meat on the bone, then basically, we put 2 big concept there. One is us looking into a long-term sustainable business; and second, the growth potential. And if I look into the sustainable business, then I think we've been quite bold. I'm very bold about it as well. The idea is for us to create a long-term value for our shareholders, for employees and for our customers. And the idea is, even if we need to make a short-term sacrifice in order to make a long-term better value creation opportunity, then this is clearly our strategy. The strategy is to maximize value in the long term or midterm even as well. So I'm not the one who think like long term. I'm talking about 10, 20 years. I'm talking about midterm as well. It means that our focus is going on only regulated markets. I think it's something trivial today to say, but it is important to pull it something clear. I mean the opportunity today in the markets, they are pretty much mostly in regulated markets. This is where the industry is moving forward as well. And second is we want to make sure that we're doing what is right for this industry as well, meaning investing whatever it takes into player safety, responsible gambling, using our asset as a technology business, to use all of this great technology and know-how that we have, to use it to protect customers. We launched a new concept, a new tech, which is -- it's more than tech. It's a program. It's commitment, which is called ARC, A-R-C. It's Advanced Responsibility and Care, which is basically putting a lot of our know-how and our technology in terms of AI, BI, try to predict problem gambling before it's really happen and protect customers, I believe something which will become very, very valuable in the future. And we can even share it with other competitors, others in the markets as well. I mean we don't want to compete on player protection. So definitely something that I believe that we as a leader should be doing, work very close to regulators. So anyway, on sustainability, our objective is to make sure this industry continue growing in a safe way, protecting what needs to be protected and focus on in regulated markets. And the second pillar is about growth, which is basically we as a business, we want to continue to grow. There is many, many opportunities for us. I've been very bold on this, and I'm still. We can double or triple our business in the next 5 years. I really believe that there are so many opportunities. And actually, double or triple is very, very realistic, to double or triple our business in the next 5 years. And I will -- we put it into 4 categories of growth opportunities. Clearly, #1 is in the U.S. The U.S. is a massive opportunity. It's going to be probably the biggest online iGaming and sports betting market in the next 5 to 10 years. I mean New Jersey is a good example, only a single market. It's probably going to be a 2 billion market very, very clearly. Only iGaming is 1 billion. So I think the U.S., I think the estimation by 2025, to be 20 billion. There is some estimation it's going to grow as big as 50 billion as well. I'm very -- I believe it will be at least 50 billion market as well in the long term. And we are very bold on this. We believe we'll be at least 15% to 20% market share from the whole U.S., which, again, if you run the numbers, 15%, 20% of these numbers over the next 3 to 5 years, then its massive growth opportunity by itself. We have the best partner in the U.S., and I can touch it later as well, with MGM. So clearly, our #1 growth opportunity in the U.S. The second one is continue to grow our core business. As we've shown in the last 19 quarters, we've been growing double digits in the last 19 quarters, consecutive quarters, double digit on Online business. Our Online business is pretty much now almost GBP 3 billion a year, GBP 3 billion a year. If you apply 10%, 15% growth on that, then you will see the potential, just the core business to continue growing double digit. It's massive. And the second one as well, I did mention that our focus is only regulated markets. We currently operate -- beside the U.S., we operate in another 20 regulated markets, and there is probably another 60 regulated markets which we are not there yet. And if you look into the opportunity for us to penetrate the 60 regulated markets, and we're definitely going to put it as a priority as well, these are markets that our brands are very relevant. I mean people know the bwin. They know partypoker. So we have global brands. Our technology is very relevant. Our marketing know-how is very relevant. There's really no real reason why we don't take all of our assets and deploy them into these other regulated markets. And these are markets in Latin America, in Africa, in Europe, et cetera. I mean we made already one step to this direction a few weeks ago. We acquired a business in Portugal. And we as a business has a proven track record of acquiring or entering these markets and becoming a market leader quite quickly. And we did it in Georgia 2, 3 years ago. We'll do it now in Portugal. And I'm looking forward to doing it in another 30, 40, 50 markets in the next 3 to 5 years. And probably the last pillar on growth is new audiences as well. I talked about it as well last week, is the fact that we have already all of these assets, and we see other trends opening -- happening. These are consumer trends. This is external to our industry, but these are now converging. And probably one of the examples I gave is eSports, which I believe is a very interesting trend. More and more people spend time -- their personal time on gaming, and gaming is probably the most growing consumer trend in the world today. There's 2 billion gamers. This is growing very fast. It's a massive industry. And from this perspective, it's also become more and more popular, eSports, as people compete each other on computer games. And we want to be dominating this industry as well as a wagering business in the e-gaming or eSports business as well and taking you to very exciting places of VR, AR, 5G, all of these trends. I believe this all will come, and we will have a lot to offer there with our technology, with our know-how. So to summarize, in terms of the growth opportunity, if you take U.S., if you take our organic growth, which we're growing, and you take the fact that we will enter another 30 or 40 regulated markets and penetrate new audiences, this is why I'm so confident that we are going to double or triple our business in the next 5 years.

Wow, that's -- Shay, that's fantastic and a great intro. Now I've got a lot of questions on technology. So I suppose almost cutting to the chase, I mean, what sets your technology apart from the others? And is your technology the best out there, the best in the U.S., is the question.

So yes, I mean, it's a good question. And I think this is -- again, it's not surprising question. Many people ask me the same thing. So I mean the clear answer is, yes, I mean we are leading in technology. And maybe we'll try to break it down why we are leading on technology. So first, I mean, take me -- it's symbolic again. But again, these symbolic things show a lot, right? I'm a technology guy. I mean I don't think you see in any other business a CEO whose background is technology. I used be CTO. I love technology. If you now ask me to sit and write some code, I can do it. Clearly, as a CEO, it's not my role to write code, but I love technology. I spend a lot of my time on tech. And so -- and we as a business, I mean, we are very tech-driven as well. I mean we basically created a lot of value for our shareholders in the last 5 years through technology. We've been able to, again, acquire businesses like bwin.party, like Ladbrokes Coral, improve it through technology, drive synergies and create better products and -- better products to our customers through technology. Now to throw one more thing there, again, just it's -- basically, it's a question which has a lot of angles to it. But if you put it all together, this is how you understand it. We are the only business as well who own its full technology stack. I mean none of our competitors own their full technology stack, right? I mean some of them are talking about technology, and they do own technology to be fair as well, but no one really own the full technology stack because we have our own sport platform, which is the trading tools and the core engine of the betting as well. We have a casino platform, bingo platform, poker platform, the CRM platform, the BI platform, the website, the mobile platform. We basically have all of it, right? So basically, when we go to a new market or when we penetrate a new state in the U.S., we don't need anybody to do anything, I mean, externally. It's all done internally. We don't rely on any providers. We do everything internally. So we have more than 3,000 IT people -- we have more than 3,000 IT people who basically work for us and develop our products every year, which is massive. I mean it puts us pretty much on a -- as a Tier 1 technology company like any other technology company. It gives us the flexibility to be able to go and to prioritize internally, give us the ability to go and grow this team as well. And over the long term, it gives us the agility as well, meaning if we decide something is important, like we want to launch Tennessee or develop content, we're just going to do it. By the time that our competitors are thinking about doing something, we've already done it. And we see it in a few other markets -- a few -- many markets. So I think we are the only one who'll be able to do so many things at the same time. So we bought a business like Ladbrokes Coral. We migrated it to our own tech and extract GBP 160 million of cost synergies. In this time, we launched 10 states in the U.S. We changed the regulation in Germany, and we launched in Colombia, and we continue to lead the product. I mean no other business will be able to do all of these things at the same time. And the only reason we can do it at the same time, because we are very tech-driven and technology-enabled, all of that.

Wow, that's pretty impressive. Now Shay, I've got a lot of questions on the U.S., and I'll do my best to get through most of them before I go on to the rest. What do you see as a bigger opportunity for the industry in the U.S., iGaming, which I think people talk, an 8 billion market today; or sports betting, which is a 12 billion market today by '24, '25?

So I mean just to better understand, so the question is, what is the opportunity in the U.S.?

I guess what's a bigger opportunity, iGaming or sports betting? I suppose the answer is both.

Yes. I mean I think -- I don't think it's a conflict. I mean it's both, right? I mean I think both are clearly big opportunities. It all depends on how fast the regulation will go, right? I think the regulation, I think it will end up with both anyway in most of the states, if not all of them. It's just a matter of timing. Clearly, sports is currently more a frontrunner, but I think iGaming is catching up as well. I mean more states are now coming with iGaming as well. Again, what we've seen in other industries -- sorry, in other markets is that iGaming is actually -- has a better economical model than sport. We've seen it in other markets. I believe the U.S. will be similar as well. I mean New Jersey is probably a good example. So it's much more easier to drive ROI on iGaming than sports. But again, sport is very lucrative as one. So both of them are very relevant. Ideally, we want to dominate both, and I think we will dominate both. I mean iGaming is probably the easy one because, again, the BetMGM brand and the BetMGM, M life database and our strong product like iGaming is putting us already as a very strong frontrunner, the leader in iGaming. I mean we are #1 market share in New Jersey. And actually, it's amazing what we did in the last 12 months. So we are now 23% market share in New Jersey, which is the largest market in the U.S., the largest iGaming market in the U.S., and we are the largest in this market. So you should -- in iGaming. So you can see that -- and we just did it in the last 12 months. I mean we pretty much almost doubled our share in the last 12 months in iGaming in New Jersey, again, evidence to our capability in terms of the tech, the product and the operational capabilities. So iGaming will be massive, and I believe we will dominate this category. Sport is more competitive. It should be in a bit more slower for us, but I think we're making a really good progress. We are now 10% market share in New Jersey as an example. In Colorado, we are probably double-digit there, I don't know, you call it, 15%, 17%, 18%. And again, it's still growing. Nevada, I believe, will be a very big state for us as well with MGM presence there. Michigan will be a great state for us. We are about to launch in Pennsylvania in 2 weeks' time, I hope. Hopefully, Michigan will launch online before the end of the year. So I think both of this iGaming and sport will be lucrative. Probably sport would be in more states in the short term, but I think it will balance itself at the time. And I think we will definitely lead in iGaming, and I think we will lead as well in sport as well. And if you want me to say why I think we'll lead, I can touch it as well.

Well, just a couple of questions have come in about what lessons have you learned as you've launched in new states, i.e., sort of more aggressive customer acquisition strategy. And also, what are the main differences or similarities between a U.S. and a U.K. customer? I guess I'm thinking of stickiness and spend per head there and loyalty.

Yes. So I'll start with the lessons, right? So what we learned, we learned that -- again, we really launched only 12 months ago, to be honest, right? I mean again, if you give some credit to DraftKings and FanDuel, they probably got their game in the last 18, 24 months. We really started 12 months ago in the U.S., I mean. Clearly, I mean, we have 20 years of experience outside the U.S. So clearly -- but our focus really came into the U.S. in the last 12 months. And again, I want to get -- give also -- and I'm saying it, is to give also to credit on the massive progress we made in 12 months, right? I mean we are now clear #3. I hope that in 12 months' time, if we have a check, we will be more than just #3, #2, and our objective is to be #1. What we learned is that how important is it to be at day 1 in every market. We learned that. I mean Tennessee is probably a good example. I'm looking forward to see the result of Tennessee when the first market share report will come up. I think it's going to be really positive surprisingly for everybody and for us. We learned it's very, very key to be on day 1. Other than that, I think we just continue to localize the product. I think our product, where it is today versus where it'd been in the last 12 months ago, is in a much better place. I think in iGaming, we have pretty much the best product today. On sport, the product is getting really competitive. Sorry, on sport, the product -- yes, on sport, the product become much more competitive as well. And again, we just launched a few products on Parlay as an example, and I think we were discussing this as well, which make it a really good edge. The integration we made with our partners with Yahoo! and BetMGM are coming up as well. So again, it's a bit -- the market opened. Everybody went through. I think the capability is now starting to play a big part now as well. And now we started to see that the business like ourself coming with all of these capabilities, which I mentioned before, and the experience we have in other market as well is starting to play as well. And what do we bring, which -- from Europe and from other markets as well, we bring a lot, right? I mean the whole CRM, digital marketing, product execution capabilities that we have are very, very similar in the U.K. that you can leverage them in the U.S. as well. I mean trading, all of this. I mean again, we've been operating sport and iGaming for 20 years in other markets. And it's a massive tech and depth that we have that we leverage. I can give you many examples. I mean let me just took 2 as an example.

Just a couple, yes. Great.

So it would be tangible, right? So real-time marketing, right? So real-time marketing, something we've been doing for like 4, 5 years now in the U.K. as an example, right? So now one of the technology that we own is the ability which gives us that as the match is going on in real time, based on what happening in the match, we've been able to understand through our BI data who are the people who are actually watching this match or engaging now with bets. And based on the events, we're sending them real-time promotions or real-time offers to continue and engage. So say you bet on a team and your team to lead and your team is not leading. So we offer you to change your bet or we offer you to put another bet. Or if you bet -- you say in the first -- you put an NBA game and you say, "I bet my team will be leading in the first quarter of the game." And let's say the first quarter is done, but you didn't put in a bet for the rest of the game, we will engage you in real time. So this is real-time marketing. And again, it sounds trivial but it's not very trivial. I mean to get all of this real-time capabilities, when you're talking about hundreds of thousands of customers or tens of thousands of customers, where you need to segment them and be able to communicate with them on real time, it's really important. And again, this is something which will take competitors many, many years to build these capabilities. We have a built-in capability, which we already use it in other markets. So for us, just take it, plug in, press the button and run it. Another example is CRM automation. I mean one of the thing that we have is that our CRM is today 95% automated. And it took us probably really good 10 years to build it properly. What does it mean, CRM automated? It means that today, when you engage in our website, 90% of the communication you will have, offline, online, will be automated, meaning you came in, you didn't deposit, you'll get a message. You deposit but you didn't place the bet, you get a message. You place the bet but you never come back, you get a message. All of these different scenarios, which sounds simple, some of them are not very simple because, let's say, you lost your bet 4 times in a row and as a result of losing your bet 4 times in a row, you feel you're not unlucky, we will make you an offer to come back, right? So we're basically understanding the different scenarios of the customer and based on that, tailor the CRM communication. We have probably more than 10,000 different CRM tools in our system. And again, bringing them in and leveraging, it's a massive IP that will take years for others to build. And I think this is why we'd be able now to start getting this market share that we're showing every month.

Wow, that's very clear, Shay. I've got quite a few questions that come in just on the joint venture with MGM. I mean -- and you kind of touched on it. But can you or do you need to go toe to toe on marketing dollars with the likes of FanDuel and DraftKings? How can you take so much market share from the leader, which obviously is FanDuel? And would it be mainly through the likes of either Yahoo! Sports or M life or true better products?

Yes. I mean -- so financially, clearly, yes. I mean there's 2 strong parents here, MGM and GVC, soon to be called Entain. I mean we are very big profitable businesses, and I don't think we have any issue with financial commitment for this business. We are both very committed to this. So I don't see issue. And if we need an external source of funds, that means funding, then we will get it. I mean I don't think we'll have an issue. So I'm not worried at all, and we will do whatever is right for the business. So if we need to spend more, I mean, we both said, I said it, MGM guys saying it as well, we were fully committed to be a leader in the U.S. And if we need to spend more, we will spend whatever it takes to be a leader, and we demonstrated it. So not worried about that. Now in terms of -- so our capability is out there. In terms of how are we going to get market share, yes, I mean, as I mentioned, we're already showing that we're getting market share. I mean New Jersey, iGaming, we are #1. I would think that, again -- and we're getting market share in every other market we operate. In markets which already open up and running, I think it will be every month, we're going to get another 0.5% percent, 1%, 0.5% percent, 1%. And you're starting to see gradually how we're grabbing market share exactly as definitely in the last 6 months. If you look into the data today versus 6 months, you see that this is exactly what we did. I would expect this to continue. And this is done, again, based on better product, more aggressive marketing that we're doing as well. And then probably the crown jewel here that you mentioned is Yahoo!. And then probably the biggest one is actually M life. M life is the jackpot. And let me explain what I mean on that. So M life is more than 30, 3-0, more than 30 million customers in M life database. We know this is our customers which are very, very relevant. They are very relevant in terms of their preference, in terms of gaming and sports, MGM's relationship with them clearly because they are part of M life. And even if you take just the big tier of the gold and platinum tiers in terms of M life, you're still talking about good few millions there as well. These are very, very valuable customers, and these people are already loyal to MGM. And all of the things we've been doing, and we've always done it, is create the BetMGM journey as part of the whole MGM experience. And this is what we've been doing probably for the last few months. So today, if you are an M life customer, then you're getting the M life tiers. As you spend with BetMGM, you're feeling basically that is part of the journey as well, as I said, in terms of you being able -- we just launched -- I think this week, we launched also new ability to redeem the points as well through the BetMGM app as well. So again, it's also part of the same ecosystem. And then we would ideally -- again, this is pretty much where we're going with this. We would want to see all of the people who are with M life, who like sport betting, who like to play iGaming, to become a loyal BetMGM customer. And as I said last week, we've already seen through this journey, which we just started it, and it's actually -- I'm like surprisingly amazed how fast progress we make so quick. In the last few weeks, from the all-new customers we've been onboarding into BetMGM, 25% of them, 1/4, 25% of them are M life customers. Just show you the power of this. And we know that these customers are very loyal. They will stay with us for longer. And we also know that the value is clearly double. So now put this on 1 million of customers, which I believe that over time will be more loyal for us, they stay longer with us, they are more valuable, this is a massive value for us. And again, we just started to get this working, and I think this will be a big competitive advantage on the long term.

And Shay, just related, I mean, you've obviously got some great partners, but are you seeking more partners to add to your proposition?

Yes. I mean definitely. I mean again, it's not something that you would always stop looking for. I mean I'm doing it -- we're doing it also in our core business as well. You're always looking for partnership which you can create value. I mean we currently -- again, I wouldn't say that we feel that we miss anything. We have all the ingredients for success. So even if we don't end up with any other partner, I don't think we need anything else. So we have the tech inside -- internally. We have the market access, right, through MGM and partners that we already have. So we have market access to everywhere we need to go. We have the product. We have the brands. We have access to players through M life, through Yahoo!. We have DFS access through -- again, through Yahoo! as well. Yahoo! Sports is a big DFS database as well. So we have everything actually. So we don't really need anything. Whether we will have an opportunity to accelerate some of the stuff through other partners, I mean, yes, we will definitely explore it. I mean it's something that we're always open-minded to see whether we can accelerate value.

That's great. Just 1 -- just 2 more questions on the U.S. before we move on, Shay, if that's okay. Somebody just asked, could the election of Joe Biden change anything in regulation in the U.S. or not?

I don't think so. I mean again, I'm not like probably the best person to comment on politics. I do enjoy watching it from time to time. But I don't think so. I think my personal view is that the train left the station in terms of sport betting and iGaming in the U.S. I believe that if anything, we actually see it accelerating. More and more states, definitely through pandemic, actually want to accelerate legislation to iGaming. And I think we just continue in one direction. I think now also, you think about it, there's no one else who will not be against it. There's no one really left to lobby against. I mean the casino wants it. The leagues want it. So there's no one, I think, left to object it. So I think it would just move into one direction.

Great. Another question coming in here is somebody is asking, curious to know what IAC are bringing to the table at an operational level in MGM because of the joint venture? At IAC's recent earnings call, management brought up GVC as the key reason for the $1 billion investment into MGM.

Yes. Clearly, it's very flattering for us, I mean, that a business like IAC, which is well, well respected and then has a track record of value creation in digital environments and Internet consumer brands. I mean it's impressive how they build their business. And if they identified GVC as a technology leader entering the U.S. market, partnering with MGM as a safe bet in terms of one of the leaders in this market, then, again, I mean, great. This is what we've been saying for some time, and great to see that someone like IAC get it quite quickly. IAC, I mean, they are a massive shareholder with MGM. And clearly, through our relationship with MGM, their voice is being heard. And they are very valuable people. I mean they're very -- their opinion and experience is very valuable. I wouldn't say that a lot of it is currently landing yet, but I think we would expect to see them more and more active. I will -- definitely will welcome that.

That's great. And again, almost sort of last question, a segue on, is until recently, Kenny Alexander spoke about Brazil as the biggest potential market for GVC. Now it's obviously the U.S. I guess the question from this person is why has this changed. I think we know the answer, but more -- just to talk a bit more about that.

Yes. I mean it's all about market growth. I mean again, the numbers are there. I mean Brazil remain a very strong potential for us. We are the leading brand in Brazil. We're actually, again, working very closely there with the authorities to get Brazil into fully regulated. It's been regulating for some time. And again, we are a leader there. We believe -- I believe that we will continue to be leading. There is a massive opportunity in this Latin America and Brazil as well. We're just about to launch in Colombia now, by the way, any day now. Colombia, which will be fully regulated, another country in Latin America, which is a massive opportunity. We are working to enter to Mexico as well. So I mean Latin America in general, it's emerging market and has a massive opportunity. I mentioned Africa as well. I personally believe in a lot of growth to come from emerging markets. I mean U.S. is the biggest economy, right? I mean it's massive, right? And I think we have to be there. We want to be there. We make -- we have a great partner. It's probably -- again, if you look 5, 10 years from now, it will be the largest market. And we have to prioritize this as it's the biggest opportunity for us in the next 5 years to create value, and we're doing it. But again, if you look -- again, as I said, our strategy is more than just 3 years or 5 years. I'm looking long, long term here. U.S., we'll be a leader. In Europe, we are already a leader. Australia, we are a leader. I want to see how we can lead also in places like Africa, Latin America, more countries in Europe, continue expanding in the U.S. And again, it sounds like we're trying to do a lot. But again, we have actually these capabilities. We've been proving that we can do all of this thing, and we excel on all of these things. So yes, so I see Brazil as a massive opportunity and U.S. as a massive opportunity.

And again, you mentioned sort of the 20 regulated markets you're in, but the 60 that you're not are 45 billion of [ GGR ]. And just a bit more detail, could maybe a bit more precise which markets do you think are most interesting? And maybe what's holding you back entering these markets? Are they too competitive, lack of regulatory enforcement, payment solutions technology?

Yes. So I mean entering into -- I mean clearly, I mean, again, part of the growth strategy is entering into further -- I mean, call it, like organic plus-plus is basically entering further regulated markets beside the U.S. These are markets like if you look in Europe, you can talk about Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Romania, Bulgaria. I mean it's a whole market, and I can continue. I probably can give you 20, 25 countries in Europe which are regulated, Serbia, that you can get license and you can operate. Actually, markets where the bwin or partypoker brands are well known as well. And probably, we are monetizing the bwin.party acquisition in the last probably 5 years and the Ladbrokes acquisition as well. We've been focusing to make sure we integrate creating this platform, which we did. And moving forward, they've been focusing on this core 20 markets, which had been the largest one, to be honest, and now we can expand even further. If you talk about Africa as an example, I didn't give some examples. I mean Kenya is a big market, Tanzania, Uganda. There are all regulated markets online. There is more than 20 regulated markets in Africa, Latin America. I did mention Colombia and Mexico as an example, but there's other countries. Paraguay is another good day example who are regulated. You can get a license. You can launch. Now how do we prioritize that? Clearly, you want to go more to the bigger markets, which still have growth, a lot of growth in front of them, which by the way, all of them has a lot of growth. They are far from being mature market, which is attractive by itself. And then it all depends on the opportunity as well. I mean Portugal is a good example. So let's take Portugal as an example. I mean the ideal formula for us is actually to buy, to acquire the #4, #5 in the market, like an operator, which is #4, #5, already have license, have some presence and within 2 years to make it #1. Again, we did it in Georgia. We bought a business, which made $10 million EBITDA. And within 2, 3 years, we make it $40 million EBITDA. So we 4x make the business within 2, 3 years, again, deploying our marketing know-how, our technology, all of these things basically. And we just, a few weeks ago, announced that we acquired a business in Portugal, again, fully regulated country, which makes EUR 6 million EBITDA. And I'm very confident to say that this business will make EUR 20 million EBITDA in the next 2 years, right? So basically tripling it. And again, you think about it, it's an amazing model because we paid, say, EUR 60 million for this business who makes EUR 6 million. So you pay 10x, which is relatively, I would say, a bit expensive or normal digital, I mean, to buy a business. But then within 3 years, we make it EUR 20 million, make it 3x. So it's a massive formula for us to create value to our shareholders and accelerate earnings as well. And if we can make another 10, 15 Portugals like this, just show you the opportunity. And this is what we're planning to do around the expansion.

Really simplistic. With integrating, is it really just -- is it just basically plug and play with your sort of technology platform?

It's as simple -- yes, it's as simple as that. I mean it's a bit more than that, but it's as simple as that. I mean again, after we did the bwin.party one, which is a massive business with like, I don't know, 20 countries, and we did the Ladbrokes Coral one, which is a massive migration, for us to do now bolt-on ones, which is small, it's like -- yes, it's something which is already -- again, launching 20 states in the U.S. I mean after we're doing all of these changes, for us doing this is almost like a natural BAU work. So it's -- again, I mean, for other businesses who maybe doesn't have the expertise or the experience internally to buy businesses, integrate them, extract value, move technology, integrate cultures, I mean, it's not just technology. It's a lot more than that.

Yes, of course.