Ferrovial N.V. (FER) Earnings Call Transcript

Good morning or afternoon, everybody. This is Silvia Ruiz speaking, and I would like to welcome you to Ferrovial's conference call to discuss the recently [indiscernible]. I am joined here today by our CEO, Ignacio Madridejos; and our CFO, Ernesto Mozo. Just as a reminder, the presentation has been made available on our website. [Operator Instructions] And please bear in mind that the presentation contains forward-looking statements and expectations that are subject to certain risks and uncertainties. So actual figures may differ. With all this, I will hand over to Ignacio. Ignacio, the floor is yours.

Thank you, Silvia, and hello, everyone. Today, I will present the I-24 Choice Lanes project in Tennessee, an important milestone for Ferrovial with a potential to create significant value. We're selected to deliver the project in August, reached commercial closing on the 30th of September, and now we are working on the financial clause. The I-24 Choice Lanes is Tennessee's largest-ever capital investment and its first public private partnership transportation project. The corridor stands 26 miles between Nashville [indiscernible] from the I-40 area toward 840. The project will add 2 Choice Lanes in each direction alongside the [indiscernible] general purpose lanes. The project is a 50-year design, build, finance, operate and maintain concession, to retains responsibility for customer service, toll collection and maintenance of the 4 existing general purpose lanes to remain toll-free. The project has an estimated construction cost of approximately $9.2 billion, with an expected 8-year construction period and service commencement expected in 2034. Turning to the corridor fundamentals. Let me start with the growth profile of the Nashville area. Nashville is one of the fastest-growing metropolitan areas in the United States supported by robust demographic and economic fundamentals. The region has consistently exceeded macroeconomic growth expectations, which reinforces our confidence in the project. The metropolitan area reached approximately 2.2 million residents in 2025, following sustained population growth of around 2% per year over the last decade. Over the last 10 years, real GDP grew at 4.6% compound annual rate, while media household income reached approximately $88,000 in 2025, around 9% above the U.S. average. The region combines a diversified economy, a deep talent pool supported by more than 20 universities, a strong graduate retention and continued corporate investment and relocations. Today, Nashville is home to 5 Fortune 500 headquarters and has attracted 35 corporate relocations since 2018, further strengthening employment and economic activity. Growth across logistics, technology, finance, health care and entertainment continues to reinforce the region's economic resilience and long-term competitiveness. This demographic, employment and economic trends are important drivers of long-term travel demand and support the attractiveness of the I-24 corridor. Moving on to the next slide, I-24 is a gateway corridor sharing multiple economic and mobility needs across the region. The corridor is a key freight and logistics route. Nashville is 1 of only 6 U.S. cities where 3 major interstate highways converted and heavy vehicles account for approximately 12% to 60% of corridor traffic. I-24 first part of the Atlanta to Chicago and St Louis, freight corridor linking the Southeast and Midwest with around 50% of large trucks traveling long distances. Beyond freight, the corridor supports daily travel demand along the Nashville to [indiscernible] serving a fast-growing residential area and providing access to Nashville. The corridor also provides direct access to Nasville International Airport, which handled a record 26.7 million passengers in fiscal year 2026 has grown at an 8% annual rate over the last 10 years. Our analysis shows that users rubble approximately 10 miles per trip on average, while track trips are longer than the corridor average, underscoring the corridors importance for both regional connectivity and freight activity. Development activity has also been significant with approximately 178 million square feet of new developments along the corridor between 2020 and 2026. Overall, these demand drivers position I-24 as a strategic corridor underpinned by multiple and diversified sources of traffic demand, supporting the long-term fundamentals of the project. On the next slide, we can see the scale and persistence of the corridors congestion challenge. The corridor currently carries approximately 150,000 to 190,000 vehicles per day. The analysis shows approximately 8 to 11 hours of congestion on a typical day, with [indiscernible] conditions lasting around 4 hours in each direction and speeds falling below 20 miles per hour. The heat maps compared with [indiscernible] traffic conditions in 2016 and 2026 areas sound [indiscernible] colors indicate more severe congestion and longer delays. What is important is not only the intensity of congestion, but also its expansion across the corridor. Compared with 2016, congestion today is more intensive, last longer during the day and affects both directions of travel over longer stretches of the corridor. The maps also saw that congestion is no longer limited to traditional peak period, with traffic conditions remaining constrained for much of the day. The [indiscernible] peak illustrates the geographic extent of the bottleneck across the corridor. Under current traffic conditions, users can experience delays of 36 minutes during peak periods. The new managed lanes will help to elevate congestion, thereby bringing a reliable option to local residents. Looking ahead to 2034, when the asset is expected to begin operations, the traffic case is supported by 3 factors: expected strong regional growth, [indiscernible] demand currently constrained by limited capacity and the gradual user adoption, we typically observe following capacity expansion. Starting with the regional outlook, the slide shows, third-party forecast compound annual growth from 2025 to 2034 of approximately 1% for population, 2.1% real income per capita and 2.8% for real GDP. One important point to highlight, as mentioned in previous slide, is that Nashville has consistently exceeded previous macroeconomic growth forecast. This track record provides additional support for the region's long-term growth fundamentals. We also see evidence of [indiscernible] demand along the corridor. Between 2010 and 2024 traffic grew by approximately 1% annually in the northern section of I-24, compared with more than 3% growth in sections where capacity is available. The most congested areas exhibit the lowest observed growth. This pattern shows demand being shifted to other routes or other times. This suggests there is latent demand that can return to the corridor once additional capacity becomes available. Based on that, we expect a fast period of initial user adoption, according to our experience in our managed lanes portfolio users typically take approximately 2 to 3 years to become familiar with a new route configuration and the benefits it provides. Together, expected regional growth [indiscernible] little of suppress demand and anticipated progressive user adoption support, the traffic assumptions for the asset following its expected opening in 2034. Turning now to connectivity. This is one of the principal differentiators of our design, as stated by TDOT. When comparing the TDOT reference design with the [indiscernible] design, the number of interchanges connected more than doubled from 7% to 15%. With that, the share of corridor trips in scope increases from approximately 70% in reference design to 90% in our design which represents 1.4x more in scope trips than under the reference design. Entries and exits increased from approximately 0.8 per mile to approximately 1.2 per mile. The design includes more direct connectors instead of T-ramps and longer acceleration lanes designed to accommodate heavy vehicles entering safer at speed. These features make it easier for users to access the choice lanes across the corridor and create greater connectivity and thereby, travel convenience. At the same time, the optimized design reduces right-of-way requirements and lower community impacts. Overall, the design allows more trips to access the choice lanes with greater travel convenience for users and fewer impacts on surrounding communities. Moving to the pricing framework. The objective is to manage congestion and preserve reliable travel times as traffic conditions change. I-24 use dynamic pricing that responds to real-time demand no ceiling rates. The pricing framework establishes a soft toll cap and pricing goes above the top cap when the fine traffic or speed conditions are met. To rates about the soft cap can increase without a defined formula and with no maximum. Above certain pricing levels, a portion of the revenue is shared with [indiscernible]. The developer retains 100% of total revenues up to $3.2 per mile. Above that level, revenue share with [indiscernible] through the banks shown on the slide. The developer retains 50% between $3.2 and $4.8, 25% between $4.8 and $6.4 and 10% up of $6.4. The means of toll cap stands at $1.6 per mile. There is also a lower [indiscernible] cap of $0.8 per mile when volumes are below 500 passenger car equivalents per lane per hour, also most traffic across our portfolio operates above that level. The soft cap is [indiscernible] annually at the greater of 2.5% or the average of Tennessee GDP growth, U.S. CPI and 3%. And on cap pricing event may be trigger when traffic exceeds 1,500 passenger car equivalents per lane per hour when speed falls below 55 miles per hour. This is substantially easy to surpass based on our experience improving level of service to users. In addition, when a trigger is reached on one segment above sub cap pricing may also apply in the proceeding segment. This allows the pricing response to extend across connected sections of the corridor, helping manage congestion before it spreads further throughout the network. Heavy vehicles are subject to high pricing multiples from 3x for extended vehicles to 8x for large trucks. These multiples reflect the greater capacity used by larger vehicles. Overall, the combination of dynamic pricing, preceding segment pricing, annual escalation and differentiated heavy vehicle multiplies provides substantial operating flexibility while keeping the framework focused on reliable service for users. Our projections for I-24 are granted in extensive benchmarking against our 16 managed lanes portfolio. NTE35 West is the most relevant comparable particularly given a similar traffic mix. Importantly, the I-24 pricing framework and connectivity will apply 2035. Well, this is an illustrative comparison and not intending as a forecast, it provides additional support for the I-24 pricing framework. And together with our operating experience supports our confidence in the assumptions underlying our projections and expected returns adequate for the risk of the project. Let me now turn to the project construction and the measures we have taken to improve delivery visibility and reduce project impacts while mitigating inflation risk. Our innovative outside lane design is same as improving connectivity while reducing construction costs and minimizing disruption to existing users and surrounding communities. Approximately 30% of advanced design development has already been completed, increasing engineering visibility and pricing confidence. The delivery plan benefits from an early engagement with a significant local subcontract network and the capabilities to self-perform some activities. Inflation risk is mitigated through developer and granted protections, together with additional cost contingency. Moving on to the next slide, our managed lane's operational expertise provides differentiated know-how and unique operating insights and benchmarks. Estimating revenue requires a detailed understanding of several key variables and this is where our data analysis and insights from our operating portfolio give us a differentiated perspective. Specifically, there are important factors such as actual capital rates by backhaul type and time periods, the impact of connectivity and network access and how to increase in scope traffic, how quickly users adopt a new road configuration of how to improve [indiscernible] rates, understanding superior demand and how traffic returns when additional capacity becomes available, understanding how often pricing moves above the soft cap, how long it lasts and how users respond, estimating customer response to toll rate changes and understanding how segmentation configuration can be optimized to manage demand and maintain service quality. I would also like to mention that the bid has been also supported by partners. And our consortium includes 2 most experienced managed lanes operators, bringing complementary knowledge to both underwriting and the future operation of the asset. In short, the I-24 bid is underpinned by extensive proprietary analysis, proven operating experience and a detailed understanding of how manage lanes customers behave in practice. Turning to future enhancements. The concession creates a structured path to consider additional extensions over time. These potential enhancements were not included in the bid or in our projections. The agreement provides a structured path to develop potential note, Easter and software enhancements with TDOT. Any development is subject to TDOT approval. The developer holds the right to begin negotiations with TDOT. I-24 and any negotiated enhancements will form one connected network. The North enhancement is identified as the first potential enhancement in the development sequence. Moving now to the next steps. This slide sets out the main milestones from commercial close through service commencement. As you all know, commercial close was completed on the 30th of September. The next major milestone is financial close. The contractual deadline is July 2027, and we currently expect completion before that date. [indiscernible] breaking is expected in early 2029 with design and early construction works expected to start after financial close. Service commencement is expected in 2034 when the 50-year concession term will begin. In terms of interest rates, protection from the bidding submission up until the financial close, the financing framework includes agri protection for base freight risk and a substantial portion of margin risk from bid through financial close, bearing by debt instrument. For private activity bonds and taxable bonds, TDOT bears all base rate risk and 85% of margin risk. The developer bears the remaining 50% of margin risk and the volume risk for taxable bonds. For [indiscernible], TDOT keeps the rise of both amount and base rate risk. TDOT requires an investment-grade credit rating for the project debt bidding proposal. We cannot disclose information about equity and debt requirements or concessional payments until financial close due to confidentiality rules. Once we reach financial close, we'll be sharing information on concession value and financial structure that it is expected to provide adequate returns to equity even for a third-party projected revenues below our internal projections. This is expected to be a solid project with adequate returns even under more negative scenarios. Let me close by bringing other key messages from today's presentation. I-24 serves a highly congested corridor with multipurpose demand and a favorable pricing framework to manage congestion and pressure reliable travel time. Solid demographic, employment and economic growth prospects support the long-term outlook for the Nashville region. The differentiated design, advanced engineering and disciplined construction assumptions are aimed to support cost efficiency and risk mitigation. The bid is supported by operating insights and extensive experience across our manage lanes portfolio. We have maintained our disciplined approach to capital allocation, targeting a double-digit equity IRR calibrated to the project risk profile and complexity considering that this type of project is riskier than others. We also have a strong balance sheet capacity, and we intend to source the funds for the equity commitments for this project and if successful, I-25 in Atlanta mainly with cash generating in our operations and to a lesser degree with additional corporate debt, all within the framework of our BBB rating and excluding the equity raise at the Ferrovial level. We believe the market is at risk of overestimating the equity requirements of I-24. Details will be disclosed upon financial close. Lastly, we are excited about the attractive pipeline, and we are looking forward to the new management opportunities ahead, including I-25 East and I-77 South. Thank you for your attention, and I will now hand the presentation back for questions.

[Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from Cristian Nedelcu from UBS.

Could I please ask you in terms of the capture rates, roughly, could you give us an idea, I think based on public information, it seems that in Texas, your capture rates of the general purpose traffic is around 17% to 28%. I don't know if that's correct, but can you give us a bid your expectations here? Secondly, how many years does it -- do you believe ballpark? How many years does it take to reach 1,500 vehicles per lane hour? Just any color you could help us there. And in terms of the long-haul trucking, is it fair to assume that it could be more volatile than local traffic as they are more different options to choose when going for long-haul traffic rather than local traffic that is captured in the area? Do you agree or disagree maybe with this?

Cristian, yes, about the different questions that you asked, no, the first of all, capital raise, we are not disclosing, as you know, any information about our managed lanes. But of course, the information that we have from the managed lanes that we are operating today [indiscernible] as a base, not as a reference for the bid that we have submitted and estimated revenues, but we are not disclosing today any information about that. I was not clear about the second question. I think the traffic that you commented on 450,000. This is the information that was submitted by the TDOT. And it was information, if I remember well, of 2025. So I don't know well what you were asking about that question specifically. And about -- yes, go ahead.

Sorry, just to apologies, I didn't express my question very clear. I was talking about the soft cap. I think the soft cap is reached when per hour per lane -- there are 1,500 vehicles. In regards to that, roughly, how many years do you think it could take to reach that type of traffic per hour per lane and trigger the soft cap above $1.6 per mile?

So sorry, because I didn't -- I misunderstood. So I understand that you are meaning about the soft cap. What we did, honestly, is take how -- what we are seeing now in our managed lanes, especially when we have the soft cap, that is the case of Dallas and applying with this level of traffic to this specific case. So what we -- our estimates are based on what we are seeing today, but we are not disclosing how we are seeing it. But as we commented, its substantially easier to surpass. So you say, compared to what we have in the Dallas-Fort managed lanes today that is a higher number. This also looks closer to the previous one is substantially easier to surpass under any situation. And of course, I mean, we have this reference with the 407 and other assets that we have. Regarding long haul, yes, what -- the difference is that, in this case, is more related to the U.S. GDP, but it's a route that is actually being used very frequently and it's a corridor that is essentially used and is the main alternative as commented previously for some routes. But it's not the only source of traffic to the corridor because has commented this is logistic area with some short holes. I mean, this [indiscernible] in the area, a logistics center in the area and also is a lot of commuters and also the traffic and airports. So I think we see that is very solid in terms of growth because there are different sources, both linked to Nashville and how it's growing in terms of population and economic activity and also related to the U.S. GDP as could be more the long-haul traffic.

Our next question comes from Patrick Creuset from Goldman Sachs.

Can you hear me?

Yes, we can hear you.

Three questions, please. First is just to better understand, without being very specific in rough proportions, the $24.8 billion concession value promise to TDOT, would be correct to say that out of that $25 billion roughly, there's some upfront payment? And then when I look at your Slide 9, the bulk of that concession value would come essentially from revenue sharing payments? And then also, are they basically referring to future value is a discounted value of revenue sharing payments that you take into account?

Patrick, no, I think you are missing things. What is the concession value that, as we have commented previously, is something that will be disclosed at the time of the financial close, so we cannot give any additional information. What you have in Page 9 is what you are sharing about certain -- when you are above the 1,500 note that you are above the soft cap, then you can increase -- I mean, it's your decision, how much -- how fast you can increase to certain level the price and if you are certain thresholds, then you share something with the grantor. But this is independent of any concession value.

Right. Are you saying this would come on top of the concession value you've committed? So when I look at the 50%, 75%, 90% profit shares potentially at higher price points, that would come on top of the $25 billion or is it included somewhere in the $25 billion, that's all I'm asking.

I will say that is independently of the concession value. And if you go above those numbers. .

Okay. Second question, the soft cap of $160 million, is that a future value, i.e., like a 2035 value or value today that inflates until you start collecting tolls?

It is a 2025 value.

And inflates until 2035?

Yes. Yes.

Okay. question. Regarding the mandatory mode trigger level of 1,500 vehicles per hour, is that calculated alongside the entire road? Or can you look at specific segments of the road and then basically trigger on parts of the road depending on traffic level?

It's triggered by segment and as commented, and is triggered also for the precedent segment. So in one segment, you are reaching this 1,500 or 50 miles per hour, both of them are below what we see in Texas managed lanes, then is triggered in that segment. And then you can go above the $1.6 cap. And you can apply that not only to that specific segment but also to the preceding segment.

Our next question comes from Dario Maglione from BNP Paribas.

Actually, just one question on construction cost risk. The $9.2 billion, is this fixed price? And can you explain to us exactly what is the potential risk of Ferrovial here like lets say this construction grows from $9 billion, it's $1 billion more, how much would be absorbed by Ferrovial?

Yes. This is -- as you know, the construction cost is something that we estimated by 3 teams independently and with a quite advanced design, the 30% that is unusual in these specific cases, and we have been working for this project for a long period of time and also with understanding what is the local supply chains and getting quotations from them and also analyzing our self-performing activities. And with that, we came with a fixed price that has some inflation risk mitigated by the developer and by the grantor to a fixed amount and then with the contingencies. In that price, we built enough contingencies, of course, for the risk that we see today and also, of course, things that potentially we don't know. So we feel comfortable with this price that is a fixed price but also has some mitigation in case of pricing escalations, as commented previously.

And so -- but if there is a cost over then, how is that split between the partners?

This is a fixed price as commented with some escalations. Yes, and if prices at the end, you have a profit or loss is the construction company, who bears the risk, yes?

And can I just ask a quick one, just a follow-up on the previous question. The $24.8 billion payment, is that an NPV calculation? Or is it a nominal amount?

As commented previously, this -- we cannot discuss any figure right now, and we have to wait to see with the financial close [indiscernible] confidentiality agreement as commented, and we cannot disclose anything more about that.

The next question comes from Elodie Rall from JPMorgan.

I have still a few follow-ups and more questions. On the -- you mentioned that the start of the concession will be at the end of the construction phase. So does that mean that if there are delays in the construction phase, the 50-year start will be delayed as well? Second, is there any way you could share a bit of information that you think that competitors were missing in their bids to explain the difference in the bid level there? Third, what additional information would you provide at financial close? Would you give us some idea on IR that you target? And could you share with us already how the debt to equity split? Is it 2/3 debt [indiscernible] is that assumption fair? And then lastly, and related to that, I think important -- do you have a partner for the I-285 project now that [indiscernible] is out?

Okay. I will answer the first 2 questions, and then Ernesto will comment about the [indiscernible] information about [indiscernible]. Yes, the 50 years comments at the time of starting operations, so it will be whenever. If it is early, it's early and if it's later, it's later. Regarding the competitors, of course, is highly speculative because we don't know exactly what they did. One of the things that you should consider is how competitive the bids were in the sense if they have limited capital limitations, other kind of limitation when they place the bids. Some of them could have been a bit just to get the spend that is paid for presenting the bid. It's very difficult to know what the level of information and benchmark, they could do about managed lanes, especially with this pricing mechanism that is very different to previous ones. So it's very difficult to try to extrapolate the situation to other, I mean, managed lanes and try to get some value. But as I mentioned, it's highly speculative. What I can tell you is what we did. We presented an offer that we expect is going to create a lot of value for the company and even an offer that as we commented that we expect that also finance a close, it will be -- we'll get an adequate return even in situations that are more negative than our assumptions are the ones that we have seen in the market. And for partners, I think for the I-285, well, this is something that I don't know what has been disclosed. Of course, we have communicated that [indiscernible] decided a long time ago not to continue and that will continue with [indiscernible]. It does not mean that at some point, we may bring other partners, could be before commercial close or could be after financial close. So it could be when we opened the managed lanes, but we can always incorporate partners at different times, of course, at different prices, too. And then with that, Ernesto, you can comment about the information disclosure financial...

Yes, so normally, at financial close, you will have the IRR that is the output of what is called the escrow business plan. That's usually what you see, right? And of course, there will be also an opportunity to apply the capital structure to other sorts of projections that are in the market as Ignacio mentioned before, and you will then see the returns that can be achieved even in that downside projections.

The next question comes from Graham Hunt from Jefferies.

Just 2 questions from me. First one, you mentioned in the final remarks slide, the attractive pipeline of new opportunities ahead. Should we take that to mean that obviously, you've got a bid on for the 285. If you were to win that, do you feel like you would be comfortable with your current balance sheet to fund that as well? And then if you were to win 285 as well, would you -- should we assume you would still pursue additional opportunities in the U.S. like the I-77 South? And then second question, I just wanted to ask, you mentioned a couple of times that your IRR analysis was obviously adjusted for the scale and risk of the project. I don't know if there's any more color you can add to that. Just in [indiscernible] thinking this is a project which is sort of an order of magnitude larger than if not more of your existing projects, how you adjusted your risk assessment to accommodate that and ensure you achieve your targeted returns even in sort of downside scenarios?

I will answer the first question about the pipeline. And yes, of course, we commented that we bid for both projects. The I-24 and I-285 is both under the assumption that it will not need any capital increase, and we can fund it with the cash flows from our operating assets today and a limited extent also with some additional corporate debt at holding level. And yes, we'll continue winning for more projects. I think this is a very attractive pipeline, very good opportunities ahead. And yes, I think that we'll continue winning. Of course, the I-77, as you know, it was both again in favor by the Charlotte Transportation Authority. So we expect that this project will continue ahead and will get the RFP by the end of the year and then we'll be tendering hopefully at the end of the year or beginning of 2028, and we think is a very attractive project. And as you know, we have a consortium. And as part of it, we will bid for this project. And also hopefully, we can win similar to the I-285 and we can create value with these additional projects.

Well, regarding the, Graham, the equity IRR hurdle, of course, is high in terms of what is needed for these projects, and we won't mention other specifics that recently maybe were a little bit tighter than this one is similar. What we've done is also look at many other things to support the bid, right? Like -- of course, all the benchmarking that Ignacio was mentioning before. And by the way, one of the things that is important to clarify is that the hurdle for the 1,500 vehicles is checked every 5 minutes. It's not that you have to wait for an hour for that, right? And we have ample data for that. So we've looked at all the different segmentation that we have in our different assets. to assess for affordability and [indiscernible], right? So it's not only the hurdle rate per se, but also all the analysis of these sensitivities and back in to have the solid backing of our expectation.

Our next question comes from Jose Manuel Arroyas from Santander.

A couple of questions, if I may. First, you mentioned earlier that the market could be underestimating the equity payments associated with I-24. Could you please tell us what Ferrovial's capital allocation policy might be after I-24 in particular? I wanted to ask you about the $600 million or so of annual share buybacks that Ferrovial is currently implementing as part of its shareholder remuneration. And I mean, do you expect to maintain that policy? Could we expect a shift to [indiscernible] dividend? If so, when would that happen, if at all? And also, how would these plans change if you were to win I-25 East in a couple of weeks' time? And Second question is about the financial close. I know you are not going to provide details, but qualitatively, is there any scenario that could from Ferrovial to reconsider your willingness to underwrite this project, especially what levels of ups or [indiscernible] you consider at a minimum for -- to underwrite this project?

I will answer the first one, and then Ernesto will answer the second one. And yes, as commented, yes, I think that the comment in the market may overestimate equity payments of this project. And as commented, we expect that with our operating cash flows from our portfolio today and also holding debt and maintaining the BBB rating. We think that we can do this project and if we win the I-285 and also additional projects in the future. So we are comfortable with that. Regarding the distribution policy, I think that it's not going to change in the sense that the Board will continue taking decisions every year, and it will be based on the expectations and opportunities we see of investments and also considering the cash flows that we see in the future. Of course, considering as usual, a rotation of mature assets with more value to third parties than to us and also as we usually do with the potential investments and opportunities that we may see in the future. So we don't expect to see a change to what we have been doing in the past and also, as I referenced historically, we have always given a dividend. Ernesto, you can go to the next.

Yes. So I mean, you were talking specifically what happens with the financial close, depending on the availability of different financing structures. Well, the first one, I mean, you mentioned also [indiscernible] was covered during the presentation is the [indiscernible] duty and also the bidding documents clearly specify what can be done with -- if there's less availability of [indiscernible], for instance. Regarding [indiscernible], the first thing is that all the bid is submitted with rating -- investment grade rating from a variety of rating agencies, right? So our projections have been checked for their, let's say, lenders case with whatever short of the revenues they considered and we had that investment grade. So with investment grade, we also have let's say, the assessment of bulge bracket investment banks about how -- I mean, the size of what can be placed in the market, right? So therefore, I mean, with -- the market is not being closed in [indiscernible] rating and that assessment, we should be in good shape for the financial close with these instruments.