Gofore Oyj (GOFORE) Earnings Call Transcript

Good day, and welcome to Gofore's First Half and Second Quarter Results Presentation. My name is Mikael Nylund. I'm the CEO of Gofore Group, and I'm here with Teppo Talvinko, our CFO, Chief Financial Officer.

Good to meet you.

We can take questions at the end of the stream. We will have a presentation first, and you will be able to ask questions on the streaming platform. So you can do that already during the presentation, and we'll take the answers at the end. I'm afraid we are here to present a weak second quarter, even historically weak. But at the same time, we think it's really important, and we want to make sure today that you know and understand the corrective measures that we have taken and implemented during the second quarter to make sure that this quarter, the weakness is a one-off phenomenon like it is designed to be. So firstly, there's corrective action that we've taken regarding profitability by Gofore standards, a very significant restructuring operation that resulted in the layoffs of 80 Goforeans and the decrease in capacity that comes from that, but also the increase in the utilization rate and the savings on employee expenses. Secondly, regarding growth, we have made a very significant investment in -- that we announced in July. The Huld acquisition that was announced is a very significant investment and provides ample opportunity for us for future growth. And based on this, we are quite confident about the end of the year, the rest of the year and going forward from that, which you can also see from the -- for our standards, a difference from our earlier practices that we have given a guidance regarding the adjusted EBITA profitability for the full year, and we'll come back to that in the presentation a bit later. In that sense, we hope that when we now present a weak second quarter, we can, at the same time, also present a quarter that has -- that will be the turning point and will be a return to our growth track that we at Gofore, of course, are accustomed to. On this one slide, you can see looking at the last 12 months LTM net sales that the growth track is, of course, there after the Huld acquisition. And we think that the future times, they are exciting for Gofore and the Goforeans. Back to second quarter now and the highlights from that. So net sales decreased 7.9%. That's a continuation of the weak market that we've seen since 2023. Adjusted EBITA followed net sales decrease and landed at 2.6%, 10% or 10 percentage point decrease from last year, which is super significant, of course. And now if we can get our tech personnel here and put the monitor on, and we can continue after that, I think. Sorry for the technical difficulties. [Audio Gap] Just one second, I think. [Audio Gap] I think we'll get the picture back in a while for us, and we can continue. As I said, adjusted EBITA decreased following the net sales decrease and was at 2.6%. And in addition to the decrease in net sales, there were problem projects that we have written about, reported about earlier also. And in 1 project, we had a significant write-down, which amounted to EUR 1.0 million. Teppo will go into detail about the EBITA bridge in the financial highlights section of the presentation. And as of late '24, we have shifted our focus in regards to profitability from a cost control, cost savings strategy, which we quite successfully implemented during the beginning of the weaker market situation, '23 and '24. And decided that this cost savings, cost control strategy is not viable in the long run as we see that the weaker market situation continued into this year. So during this year, we have shifted that a little bit or quite radically actually. And as I mentioned in the beginning, during second quarter, we implemented a restructuring that resulted in the layoff of 80 people. And that's something that is a very different approach to the cost control strategy that we had earlier. And this quarter's profitability is also a reflection of the strategy change that we did. Those costs are now from the restructuring costs, they are now accounted in the second quarter results. Another highlight, of course, from Q2, as always, is the interesting part of customer prices. We could report a small increase in customer prices, plus 0.3% without accounting for or adjusting for the projects that were exceeding -- the problem projects that were exceeding the work estimates. If we take the whole project portfolio, it's minus 4.5%, which includes the impact of the write-off also. So still, we are controlling, although a little bit struggling with the customer prices and average salary change was plus 0.6%. So a little bit more than that, but of course, quite controlled and balanced numbers. A big highlight of the quarter was, as said in the beginning, the investment and acquisition of Finnish technology and design company, Huld. We will have a separate section in this presentation about Huld also. As mentioned, second quarter included an unusual amount of one-off items. We will have Teppo going into detail into the euros of those one-off items. But to our understanding and how we see the situation and the market situation right now, corrective measures that we have already taken are there in place to fix most of, if not all of this problem situation. Once more, there's the billing rate fix from the restructuring and the layoff of 80 experts and the resulting reduction of free capacity and the resulting increase in utilization rate, which has been the biggest problem for us in the weaker market situation and increase of the bench capacity or the free capacity and with that, a weaker utilization rate. We don't have any further write-down risks in our projects. That's something that we want to make clear to everybody. What we need to do is learn, of course, and improve and make sure that we deliver better customer value in the future. And once more, the prices and the gross margin situation that's impacted by the weak market situation and the competitive situation. Especially in the public sector market, we see that the competitive situation has for a longer time been quite fierce and that, of course, is reflected on the prices. So taking that into account, we are happy that we could report a plus 0.3% adjusted customer price change, adjusting for the bad projects that were already described. Some more details about the restructuring. After very good and quick swift change negotiations with our employee representatives as governed by Finnish law, a reduction of 80 people was implemented in the second quarter. This reduction of capacity is now reported in full in this quarterly report. No further reductions are planned at this time. The cost of implementing those reductions was EUR 1.2 million, and that those are also accounted for in the second quarter results. We expect savings on an annual basis of EUR 6.1 million from the reductions. And for this year, that will mean an estimated of EUR 2.4 million for the rest of the year. So significant savings that, of course, from an operative point of view, we will be seeing as higher utilization rate as healthier business based on higher utilization rate. I think an important impact of the restructuring is also that the market fit of Gofore's exploring the longer weaker market situation that the bench capacity, the free capacity without projects actually started to accumulate to certain kinds of expertise. And with the restructuring, we have, of course, also renewed the expertise and removed the expertise that is not up-to-date and can replace that with more in-demand expertise for today's market and the future needs of our customers. So all in all, a tough period for Gofore going through these change negotiations and restructurings. But at this point, we see it as a success. Looking at customers and considering the decline in net sales, I think we did well here. We won new clients, as mentioned on the slide, but especially, I think the idea of being the strategic partner for our big customers is still working well. We had a reduction of 1 significant over EUR 1 million per annum billing customer during the second quarter, which, as said, considering the net sales reduction, I think, is quite a good result. We do work well with our big customers, with our strategic customers, and we do good work for them. So that's, of course, super important. As a little bit anecdotal data point, we can mention that our embedded software developers, which, of course, all of them work for the industrial clients, the Intelligent Industry customer segment because that's where the embedded software is developed. They are all sold out. So that's a good situation also from -- reflecting on the market situation at the end of the second quarter. A big restructuring and layoffs are always also a risk, and we do take that risk very seriously because we continue to regard employee experience and the employee centricity of this company as a key competitor dictates. And the hard measure for I think how we have managed to do the big restructuring is the attrition rate. And that's something that we will be monitoring very closely now during the rest of the year and going forward. For H1, when we started these measures, there's nothing alarming. You will see on the attrition graph here in the lower right corner that the full attrition is on a high level, but that's, of course, a direct implication of the layoffs that we did. The more interesting figure in the chart is the unexpected levers figure, which is for the last 12 months is at 8.1%, a slight increase from the full year '24. But as said, nothing alarming yet, something that we will really be looking -- having a close look on. As we have also communicated throughout the first half, we continue to recruit. The recruitment strategy is different from what we've used to in the times of rapid growth, but we have continued to recruit. I think a not insignificant number of 82 recruitees from -- in the first half also shows that. So we recruit the sought-after profiles and the expertise and other key personnel, and that's where the 82 number has come from. At this point, I give over to Teppo, who will look more closely on the financial performance.

Thank you, Mikael. Okay. Next, I will walk you through our H1 financials. So we have faced challenges, as Mikael said in H1, but let's talk about those and also how to -- we will mitigate those. So we saw that market demand had been changing for our services, and there was quite a big bench, and we saw that this was a permanent change in demand and in the situation. So a further analysis led to layoffs. And as a result, there has been a one-off cost effect in Q2. Improved utilization rate will bring us closer to our 15% adjusted EBITA target. Better utilization and capabilities are a key way that we responded to these challenges. Secondly, we identified some problematic fixed price projects, and we saw that there is a need for a better project scoping and better project management. We addressed this, and we have taken actions to improve our risk assessment and also project management related to this. Price competition is there. But as Mikael said, if we exclude these result fixed projects, we see that the average prices for the whole portfolio increased 0.3% year-on-year basis. Right capabilities and offerings are our way forward for better price development. Summarizing Q2 as one-off change with focus on betterment. Q2 took the hit, but we addressed serious project issues. Then let's talk about H1. So Q1, we identified a market reality and learned about some fixed project issues. At the same time, we looked at growth. Q2 was actions, downsizing and strategic reassignment, improved project management together with the steps to growth. We expect that there will be payoff in second half. Changes should show a clear performance improvement in second half. We actually shifted from reactive to strategic. Q3 and Q4 will be the proof points, higher utilization and better project outcome. And with the Huld acquisition, new strategic business lines. We have excellent financial KPIs and our balance sheet position and strong cash flow after Q2 actions let us invest into organic growth and inorganic growth. We will also continue digital product life cycle and other offering developments. This all gives us a possibility to target new acquisitions beyond the Huld deal. Huld acquisition will be financed by bank loan, cash and share considerations. If we zoom up, so we have excellent financial KPIs after actions taken into Q2, and we are in a better position now to enter second half. Thank you. The stage is yours.

Good. So what we want to next do is look a little bit closer on the M&A activity. And of course, in this case, it's about the Huld investment that we made in -- or soon after the second quarter. If you have any questions regarding Teppo's part of the financials, just type them on the streaming platforms, we'll take them in the end. So very, very excited about the acquisition of Finnish technology company, Huld. I suppose quite many of you saw the announcement in the summer, but we will go through the most important parts here and talk especially about the strategic rationale and the strategic fit of these acquisitions to go for growth strategy. First of all, the basics of the deal, we will buy 100% of Huld or as it's actually called RDV Holding, and we'll take full ownership of the company as now probably by 1st of September when we get the approval from the competition authorities. Enterprise value of the deal was EUR 54.5 million. On top of the slightly lower purchase price, we will also restructure Huld's balance sheet. So that will also have an impact on the spending what the deal is about. 90% cash and 10% shares will be used as consideration. And Huld is around 400 employees. So for Gofore standards, a very big impactful acquisition, which we are aware, also includes a little bit more risk than a smaller acquisition, but we are really happy that we can get a significant impact to the strategic areas that we want. EUR 38 million in net sales in '24 and EBITDA on a quite healthy level of 15% in last year. Huld, as said, is a Finnish company, so operations mainly in Finland and working mainly with Finnish customers, but also international customers and operations in Czech and in there -- in the Czech, it's located in Prague. We find the strategic rationale quite clear with Huld. It has to do with Gofore growth strategy. First of all, we supplement what we have already built over the years at Gofore in Intelligent Industry. We double -- around double the workforce in Intelligent Industry. So we, of course, become a much more relevant partner for our big customers in that area. Some of those customers are shared, some are not. And we -- in that sense, also complement the customer portfolio. And we complement the offering. I will come back to that in the end. And equally important, I think, is the strategic new areas that we now invest in. Huld has a long history in space sectors and also a history in defense work. So that significantly enhances our chosen growth path in the security customer segment. Customers mentioned here, Finnish defense forces, also on the space side, a lot of publicly funded, mainly projects on a European level, but also some outside of Europe. So those are also projects that we see the security area being more and more integrated with space, traditional defense players and also the civil security side where Gofore is really strong. So combining these is something that we are extremely excited about and hope that this will be something that our customers will see as valuable. Looking at as a graphical presentation, this is what we announced as Gofore strategic growth areas at the end of last year. So we added new growth areas at that time. We wanted to broaden the approach to the market as we saw a little bit of a slowdown in the traditional areas where we have been strong. And then we looked for potential targets in the market that could support this strategic choice. And we, of course, found Huld who are very strong in defense and security space and in the machines and vehicles area where -- which is what we have at Gofore called the Intelligent Industry customer segment. So we see that this is a clear and very obvious synergy case in the customer areas that we are going to serve. And as you see from the customer logos on the right-hand side, similar type of customers to Gofore also big customers with big potential where we can together be an even more relevant partner for these customers in their digital transformation. So this is what we will get. We will continue working with the Gofore growth areas in digital society. We will build a very relevant offering and customer base in the security area, and we will double or significantly strengthen the Intelligent Industry volume, but also the offering there. I think is important because it's about areas where we think we can really stand out from the competition. It's the safety and security area with digital security, cyber safety, functional safety areas, which are relevant for all Intelligent Industry customers that build more and more digitalized products, more and more autonomous products and so forth. There's also another area that will be added to the capability mix of Gofore with Huld, and that's about the product design and development area that Huld is also very strong in. So really exciting addition to Gofore and something that we see that fits the growth strategy that we came out with at the end of last year perfectly. Last part of today's presentation is about targets and outlook, something that always, of course, we know interests you. Let's first look at the target part. And these are quite fresh long-term targets that Gofore's Board of Directors have chosen and these are something that, of course, remain in effect also after the first half, EUR 500 million in net sales by 2030, ambitious growth, both organic, where we need some help from the market for sure, and also M&A growth. And we've seen that the M&A market is quite active right now compared to a year ago, a very different situation. 15% adjusted EBITA profitability. And after a weaker first half, we are not going to be there this year. I think that's clear, and that's what's also reflected on the guidance that we gave now last week. And this is more of a long-term over-the-cycle target that we have, which I think historically, we've shown that we can achieve, and we are confident that we will also in the future. Looking at the more outlook part of it. I think it's still early to say that there would be any kind of clear and like complete turnaround in the market. But it's also important to say that we see individual positive signals in each and every market area where we have operated. In the public sector, no material change this year, but investments continue and especially in the security area as expected. Gofore is winning more. So that's an indication of, of course, our own performance, but also that with market normalization, with industry overcapacity decreasing, I think we will see also a more normal competitive situation, especially, of course, regarding pricing, and that's something that we expect to happen quite gradually. There will be no like big individual turnover situations. It will be a gradual improvement. As I already said, on the private sector side, we have these anecdotal data points, let's say, and one we think is important is that, the embedded software developers are fully booked right now. So that's a clear sign of intelligent industry. So machines and manufacturing customers being more active and investing more in their own product development. In the DACH area, we are a very small player still, and that I think means for us that we are a little bit slower to catch hold of the improving market conditions, and that's why we also have indicated that the, let's say, turnaround in DACH sector will be a little bit slower than what we will see in Finland. What I mentioned also on the previous slide is that, for the M&A market, there's a market difference from what we see in activity levels now compared to a year ago. So that, of course, provides opportunity. That also tells about the future, let's say, after this weaker market situation that it will be different from what we've used to. There will be winners, there will be losers. And Gofore is, of course, very strongly committed to being one of the winning side. But the M&A market, that's something that provides also future opportunities we assess right now. If you look at the shorter-range outlook and on the Q3 performance drivers, growth-wise, I think it's quite clear that once closed, the Huld acquisition raises our capacity and will drive growth quite significantly. But also, we expect and see a slight improvement in business in -- especially in Finland. We are now in the midst of August and returning from the holiday season, and that's always for a consultancy business, an important time and a very defining time also for how the autumn results will turn out. And we think that the situation looks quite good right now and is better than a year ago. So that's also a positive signal. Profitability-wise, we have issued the guidance now for the full year adjusted EBITA, and we indicate that it will be between 8% and 10%. And that, of course, also means that there will -- we indicate an improvement from the first half. So this is also something that will affect Q3. The utilization rate, we discussed that already at the beginning, the restructuring and the layoffs that we did have significantly reduced the free capacity and via that will improve or have improved the utilization rate, and that directly impacts profitability. We do not see any further write-down risks in individual projects. Price competition is more, we think, a longer-term game. In one quarter, it won't change one way or the other markedly. But with improved demand and with more normalized supply and demand situation in the industry, we think that there's also good opportunities to improve on the price development going forward if we are correctly placed -- positioned in the market and can be the strategic partner that we have shown that in the past that we can. So we are positive about the price development once we get a little bit of assistance from the market demand. For the DACH area business, we don't expect any material improvement in Q3 yet. So that requires a little bit more work. And with that, we come to our second half priorities, something that we want to share with you now so that you can see that what we are working on because, of course, Q2 was a little bit of a surprise or a different quarter to many. So we want to -- by this also assure all of you that we are working on the correct things. We -- first of all, we are very focused on ensuring that the post-restructuring performance is on a healthy level. So that means that the utilization rate that increased immediately with the restructuring measures, that also something that holds. We have a situation where our product, the expertise that we have is a little bit better fitting to the market needs than it was pre-restructuring. So this is something that we expect helps our growth, places us a little bit better in terms of pricing and also makes us a little bit more courageous in recruitment decisions. As mentioned already in the previous slide, we continue to work on the turnaround in the DACH business results. Second priority for us is finding the synergies with Huld. We are a smart integration path. So the clearest synergies that we see in terms of businesses is that, we will double our size in Intelligent Industry volume. We will have a broader customer portfolio. And this will be something that supports our position as a strategic partner for those customers. And this is also reflected on the offering that we can provide our Intelligent Industry customers. Secondly, there's the other part of the synergies to find the right kind of growth path in a very high level of growth ambition in the security area, including the defense and space areas, something that we will closely work together with Huld to find the right path and the right places to invest into future growth. And, of course, thirdly, continue investing into new growth. I mentioned that the M&A market activity level is quite high now. So that's something that takes a lot of our time, and that's obvious opportunity for us for growth. So that's something that we are working on. And also a bold enough recruitment strategy is needed at this time. We have now a healthy level of free capacity. So it means that when the opportunity arises, we need to be bold in the recruitment strategy. And with this, we conclude looking at the guidance that we issued last week. So I already mentioned that a couple of times, but just to once more tell about our guidance, which reflects the outlook that we have on the full year 2025, we expect adjusted EBITA profitability level of 8% to 10%, which, of course, means also a market improvement from the first half, and that is based on the measures that we have today explained to you and gone through in quite detail. So now time for any questions from the audience.

We have some -- should I be looking at the published or the presenter side. Thank you. Joni Grönqvist from Inderes asked that how fast after Huld consolidation, do you think you are ready for possible new acquisitions as balance sheet still gives you room and you say M&A market is more active now? Well, that's something that we need to look at on a case-by-case basis. Even though the Huld acquisition is quite big on Gofore standards, it's still business-wise, it's quite focused on certain areas of business. So that, of course, also has an impact on this analysis when we will be ready for that. But as you say, we think it's important that we have the balance sheet to take hold of opportunities that arise from the markets right now, and that's what we want to do. So not rushing it, not taking too big risks, but we believe that, let's say, 3 months could be enough for the basic integration, and we could go into the next acquisition depending on what kind of company and what kind of business the next acquisition is. Jaakko Tyrvainen from SEB asks, how fast the market in defense sector is evolving? Is the overall demand growing in the sector? Any comments on Huld's defense demand trends, if you can? We are not, at this point, able and won't comment on what Huld sees in the market. We will come back to that, of course, as soon as possible when the transaction is completed. So I'm sure we'll have more information on this. But what we see from Gofore side is that, where we are strong also is, in the public sector. We see that public sector investments into security, be it defense, be it internal security, civil security, those are not areas where the savings are targeted at. So that's -- the investments are there. Joni Grönqvist asked that how has Huld developed this year? Huld -- majority of Huld business is still in the industry area. So without directly commenting on the Huld numbers, what we showed today is the LTM number for them. And what you notice from that is that, there's a slight decrease in net sales. And we think that, that reflects on the market in H1 quite well. So they are not safe from the market situation. They are not safe from the situation that Gofore also sees. If we can assume and that's something that we won't go deeper into that the market in the industry is similar to Huld that Gofore is then the positive signals that we looked at today, the individual positive signals, I want to add, they are -- they should be also there for Huld. [indiscernible] asked that could you give some color on how you use AI internally and on customer assignments in general? And in particular, how coding will change the number of developers -- why coding will change the number of developers needed and the required competence of those who will survive this disruption? I think it is meant here. How do you rate Gofore's readiness and edge versus key peers in this area? Yes. Well, the impact of AI on especially coding is something that there's a lot of discussion in that area. And I would hold my judgment on where we are actually going as of yet. It's clear that AI will increase the average productivity of software development of coders. What is not clear, I think, is that, how much will this also drive new demand? I don't think there's a limit to how much software our world can and wants to use. We don't really see that yet. So increased productivity for sure, but I would think that the increased productivity also drives more customer demand. Our customers need the customized customer-specific solutions for them to build some competitive advantage in the market for their products, for their services. And that requires that they do software development. And I don't think that there's really kind of a hard limit of how much they would do that. Having said that, of course, different experts are differently equipped to take advantage of these tools. What we want to do is help our people to take advantage of these tools. We want to also not just see kind of the state-of-the-art in terms of tooling and productivity. We also want always our experts and via that, our customers to understand the other sides of the coin so that we still continue to produce quality software, secure software also when AI is involved. This is a really difficult question. I understand that it's on the -- many people want to ask it, but it's really early to give hard answers there yet. What we know that as of now, AI has really not decreased the demand for software developers in the market. So that's something that if it will happen, is for the future. Jaakko Tyrvainen asks market level question, how much the use of AI has improved the productivity of software engineers? Are you seeing such productivity creating more overcapacity to the markets that is the amount of available hours growing more than the actual output demand? As I just answered, no, we don't see that dynamic in the market now. And it's early to say how this will affect. I would be quite optimistic about customers having the need for further software, not having like a hard upper limit on how much software there is use for. Jaakko Tyrvainen continues. You plan to keep Huld as an independent unit. However, what type of collaboration you are planning to harvest the sales synergies? We don't want at this point to comment too much on the integration plans. But what we have said is that, for now, Huld will remain an independent unit. We see a lot of customer synergies, especially in the Intelligent Industry area, and we will do the integration measures that are necessary for us to be able to have those customer synergies. So not necessarily long-term independence as a target. [ Pekka ] asked how large a part of Huld's revenue comes from defense sector? At this point, I don't have exact numbers, and I don't want to comment on that. In the future, we might be able to give you a bigger or better understanding of these 2. Industrial customers are the biggest area of Huld's business. Joni Grönqvist asked, can you describe Huld's nearshore capability and how you plan to develop it? Huld has a small operation, a small unit that operates in Czechia in Prague. I would not describe that necessarily as a near-shoring operation. They have their own customers. They work mostly in the space business, which there's reasons why they operate in Prague. So Huld will not, in any like significant way, change the way that we have near-shoring capabilities. What we plan to do in the future remains to be seen, and we'll comment on that later. Joni Grönqvist asked that, can you tell what kind of synergies you expect from Huld? Yes. So the biggest expectation of synergies is on the customer side on developing customers that we together can serve better, where we can be more strategic partners for our customers. So that's the clear first priority. And that's what we will start working on as soon as possible. We will also be looking at cost synergies, but that's a secondary priority. Joni Grönqvist asks, do you already have a post-holiday view of customer investment mentality? Maybe not the mentality as such. What we do see is that, the utilization rate and the free capacity is on a healthy level. And as we mentioned in the Q3 drivers, it's a little bit better than a year ago. Daniel Lepisto from Danske asks, what can you comment on Huld's operating performance in '25, minding that the revenues were declining, but margins were improving in '24? As said, what we can comment on and what you can see from the presentation material today is that, for H1, there is a slight decrease in net sales. But at this time, we will not be commenting any more than that. [ Vesa Heikkila ] asked that Huld has expertise in service areas, for example, product design and development that are not in your current service portfolio. How do you see the new service area affecting your business? And what kind of plans do you have for this new service area? Yes. So as was presented, I think the 2 big areas of expertise that Huld significantly adds to Gofore, where we don't have anything or nothing substantial are, first of all, the security side of things, digital security, very important and for all of our industrial clients and a super important area, and that's something that we are very excited about. The other area is what [ Vesa ] also asked about the product design, more of the physical side of the products. And that's something that I think very well supplements the expertise and the offering that we have from before. So our customers will be able to get a more complete package of services from combined Huld and Gofore. Jaakko Tyrvainen asked that the international business continued to show steep decline. What actions you are taking to stabilize this? And are there any signs of stabilization? Well, the actions, I think, are quite clear. We are selling more. We are doing the business development that's needed to stabilize things. So as we have in earlier presentation also discussed is that, also and especially German clients or DACH clients of us have implemented savings in '24, especially continuing a little bit into '25, too, but especially '24. And on a year-on-year comparison, we have certain customers that -- where we have lost ground quite a lot. And from our learnings, it's quite typical of a smaller player in a market to be quite heavily affected by these kinds of situations and Gofore as a bigger player in the Finnish market and having big strategic customer relationships is a little bit more shielded from this quickly implemented savings. So there's only one way to fix that, and that's to get new customers and develop that business, and that's what we are working on. We do have a long list of new customer relationships. So that's a very positive. What takes time is to develop those customer relationships into something more significant and contributing more to net sales. So that's what we're working. And one more question from Jaakko. Your pricing, excluding the [ impaired ] project was fairly good. Do you believe we could see similar pricing going toward H2? Or have you had to adjust prices in the recent deals? As I said in the presentation also, a single quarter is a short time for like average prices to really swing either way. We'll see if the turning point in pricing is now reached, depends on how the market will develop. But for us, it's clear that when the market turns, when we get tailwinds from the market, that will also be positive in terms of pricing. And we are confident that our position, that our offering, that our complete digital transformation offering is something that places us -- positions us well in terms of pricing. So better market demand will translate to better price development also. Whether it happens Q3, whether it happens Q4 or afterwards, we need to wait and see. That's all, I think, yes. So thank you for your insightful interesting questions. Thank you for listening, and have a good day.

Thank you.