Greenpanel Industries Limited (GREENPANEL) Earnings Call Transcript

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Greenpanel Industries Q4 and FY '23 Earnings Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Rishab Barar from CDR India. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Good day, everyone, and thank you for joining us on Greenpanel Industries Q4 and FY '23 Conference Call. We have with us today Mr. Shobhan Mittal, Managing Director; and Mr. V. Venkatramani, CFO. Before we begin, I would like to state that some statements made in today's discussion may be forward-looking in nature and may involve risks and uncertainties. A detailed statement in this regard is available in the results presentation that was sent to you earlier. I would now like to invite Mr. Shobhan Mittal to begin the proceedings of the call. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you, Rishab. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us to discuss Greenpanel's operating and financial performance for quarter 4, FY '23. MDF sales volume rose by 10%. Export volumes grew by 89%, while domestic volumes fell by 7%. MDF EBITDA margins at 22% were impacted by higher export volumes, steep increase in raw material costs, higher brand spends, primarily on account of IPL, which was skewed towards the last quarter and price cuts taken in exports. Plywood volumes were lower by 17.1% and operating margins of 0.4% were impacted by lower volumes and increase in raw material costs. Post-tax profits for the quarter were lower by 14% at INR 68.93 crores, as compared to INR 80.59 crores in quarter 4, FY '22 due to reasons mentioned above. Net working capital at 17 days have shown a reduction of 6 days quarter-on-quarter. Net debt has reduced by INR 42 crores during the quarter and stands at negative INR 187 crores, as on 31st March 2023. We paid INR 11 crores towards MDF expansion project during quarter 4, aggregating to INR 50 crores during the year to-date. Mr. Venkatramani will now run you through the financials in greater detail, post which we will have a Q&A session.

Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us to discuss the Q4, FY '23 financial performance of Greenpanel Industries. Net sales during Q4 was INR 440.58 crores compared to INR 460.26 crores during the year-on-year period. MDF sales fell by 1% at INR 386.02 crores and contributed 88% of the top line. MDF export volumes grew by 89% at 42,927 cubic meters. Domestic volumes were down by 7% at 94,338 cubic meters, and overall MDF volumes were up by 10% at [ 137,265 ] cubic meters. MDF domestic revenues were INR 311.10 crores, while exports contributed INR 74.90 crores. Domestic realizations were lower by 1% at [ INR 32,978 ] per cubic meter, while export realizations were lower by 21.5% at [ INR 17,450 ] per cubic meter. Blended MDF realizations were lower by 10.2% at [ INR 28,122 ] per cubic meter. Uttarakhand MDF operated at 85% and AP plant operated at 77% with blended capacity utilization at 80% on enhanced capacity of 660,000 cubic meters. Plywood sales had degrowth of 22.6% at INR 54.56 crores. Plywood sales volumes were lower by 17.1% at 2.04 million square meter, and the unit operated at 70% during the quarter. Plywood sales realizations were up by 6.3% at INR 268 per square meter. In Q4, FY '23, gross margin fell by 662 basis points year-on-year at 53.7%. EBITDA margins were down by 1,150 basis points at 19.2%. MDF export realizations were lower by 10% year-on-year due to price cuts in exports. EBITDA stood at INR 84.75 crores due to reasons already mentioned by Mr. Mittal. PAT was lower by 14% due to fall in EBITDA and reflected gains due to deferred tax write-off aggregating to INR 29.36 crores. I'll now update you on the performance details for FY '23. Net sales grew by 12.2% at INR 1,778.55 crores. MDF sales increased by 15.4% at INR 1,534.58 crores, while plywood sales were lower by 4.7% at INR 243.97crores. Gross margins were up by 38 bps at 58.1%. Gross margin in value terms was up by 12.9% at INR 1,032.76 crores. EBITDA margins were lower by 320 basis points at 24.5%. EBITDA in value terms fell by 0.8% at INR 435.87 crores. Post-tax profits were up by 7% at INR 256.51 crores. Overall, MDF sales volumes were up by 2.4% at 506,743 cubic meters with blended capacity utilization of the 2 plants at 78% of enhanced capacity compared to 87% in the year-on-year period. Dispatches for plywood were lower by 7.7% at 8.58 million square meter with capacity utilization at 74% compared to 81% in the corresponding period. Gross debt to equity stands at [ 0.16% ], as on 31st, March 2023 compared to [ 0.30% ], as on 31st, March 2022. Net debt, as on 31st March stood at negative INR 187 crores compared to positive INR 144 crores, as on 31st, March 2022. That concludes my presentation. Please open the floor for the Q&A session. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Harsh Shah from Dalal & Broacha.

A couple of questions from my side. Any update on the representation we have made to levy the duty on the imported MDF? And a related question, if hypothetically, if the duty is levied, what would the difference in pricing go down to?

The matter is still, let's say, under consideration by the various [ ministry ]. The Commerce Ministry has made the recommendation, the Finance Ministry has not yet decided. Cases like ours have actually been taken up also in the Tribunal Court and the Supreme Court, where both the Tribunal and the Supreme Court have upheld that the Finance Ministry will need to take a decision on this, and until such time, provisional assessment of duty should be assessed. However, the same -- because the government machine takes time for implementation, however, the same has not yet been implemented. So it's very difficult for us to give any clarity, as to when and if the duty implementation will happen. With regards to the pricing, I mean, it's clear to say that if duties do come into picture, then, in my opinion, imports will not be a major threat anymore.

And on the plywood division, any sort of guidance you want to give for FY '24 because when I look at the margin, I think it's probably a disappointment in this quarter. So how should we look at for FY '24?

No. So -- there is -- we are restructuring our plywood business model in certain ways, and we are quite confident of double-digit volume growth in the plywood business with margins between 8% to 10% in the current financial year.

And just last one question. I believe in Q2 or Q3, we have seen some sort of slowdown in onboarding distributors in the MDF segment. So how has been the situation? And if you could give in terms of the number of distributors year-on-year, what has been for FY '23 versus FY '22?

What we have done in the last -- because when we have certain distributors and dealers in our network, we also commit a certain geographical region or a number of operating dealers in that area are committed based on the business model. What we did an assessment in the last financial year was assess dealers that we were -- were not very active or not very regular or were not in sync with our business model or business growth strategy, and hence, we decided to sort of discontinue businesses -- business operations with such dealers. And that is the reason why you see a dip in the active dealer numbers that we have because we are now in the process of reappointment of such and expansion of the dealer network, again, it's a replacement exercise.

And if you could give a number, how many distributors we have for the full year FY '23 -- as on FY '23?

About 2,300.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Shrenik Surendra Bachhawat from LIC Mutual Fund.

Sir, I wanted to understand that currently, have you taken any price cuts in MDF segment in domestic to get back certain volumes? And if not, is there any breaking point that [indiscernible] we will have to take a price cut in domestic market, if ADD doesn't come through? And my second question is, is there any specific reasons for plywood volumes being so weak for this quarter?

Sorry, can you repeat the last part of your question? I didn't understand that.

So what -- as our plywood volumes are down 17%, is there any specific reason for weak plywood volumes this quarter?

I'll answer -- the first question with regards to the price cuts in the MDF. No, we have not taken any price cuts in the MDF. And as of now, even if -- even now we are operating in an environment, where there is no protection from imports coming into the -- coming into the country, but we do not intend on taking any price cuts. And there's no defined, that's a breaking point, where we'll have to resort to taking a price cut in the MDF business. So that's definitely not on the cards given the current economic scenario. With regards to the plywood volumes, yes, there was pressure on the market side. We refrained from taking any price cuts and passing on any discounts, which has resulted in this reduction in the plywood volumes, but we are confident of revising this in the coming year. And as mentioned earlier, we're looking at a double-digit volume growth in the plywood segment as well.

Sir, could you give some more details there that how do you get the confidence of double-digit volume growth in FY '24?

Sorry, can you repeat that?

Sir, I'm just asking that, what gives you the confidence about double-digit volume growth in plywood, as the raw material prices continue to increase. And so what are we doing to get a double-digit volume growth, I'm trying to understand?

There is -- we feel that the plywood -- we are very, very positive about our plywood business. It is a business of focus for us. And given our current infrastructure and the distribution network, the fact that the company has spent on establishing a brand, which is important for the plywood industry, we foresee that this would not be a challenge in the coming year.

And is there inflation continuously impacting or inflation has -- starting to -- in the raw materials for plywood, [ how is in recession times ].

No. See, things have stabilized and towards -- to a very slight extent corrected as well.

The next question is from the line of Udit Gajiwala from Yes Securities.

Sir, could you throw some light on the trajectory of the MDF volume growth that you foresee for [indiscernible] and [ saying that ] what further price realizations could come down also [Technical Difficulty]?

Saying the voice is not good at all [ anymore ].

Udit, sorry to interrupt...

I think you mentioned -- what we mentioned was that what kind of volume growth we are looking at for MDF in the current year and whether we are looking at any curtain -- curtail prices, is that correct?

That is right.

Okay. So the MDF volume growth we are looking in between 12% to 15%, and we are quite confident of achieving this in terms of the volumes of MDF. And as discussed in an earlier question as well, we have no plans of any price cuts in the MDF business at this point of time.

So sir, do we -- so I just concluded that your margins could remain between this band of [ 25% to 86% ] or we could see contraction on a full year basis?

Yes. With regards to margins, we are quite confident in the 23% to 25% range.

The next question is from the line of Achal Lohade from JM Financial.

Sir, in terms of the IPL impact, the A&P impact, can you specify what is the extent of impact in the fourth quarter? And when you say 23% to 25% EBITDA margin, what is the A&P spend we are assuming there?

Okay. So IPL impact, so there were actually 3 different spends. One was the IPL impact. We also were doing some branding efforts in the India Australia test series, and we were also sponsoring the Pretoria Capitals. So the combined impact was about INR 7 crores in quarter 4.

And would that be a recurring one? Or this is more like...

Yes. It will be recurring. So I think if you look at brand spends, I think we'll be in the range of about 2.5% for FY '24.

My next question is in terms of the industry capacity, if you could give your perspective on the same in terms of what is the capacity India has as of March '23 and by March '26. What kind of increase are you looking at? And accordingly, what the capacity utilizations could be for players in FY '26 for the industry as a whole?

Okay. We had about 2.3 million cubic meters at the end of FY '22. And I think over the next [ 3 ] years, including FY '23, we'll see approximately 1.15 million cubic meters capacity getting added to the market. But there could be some new capacities coming in from unorganized players, which I'm not aware about.

So this 1.15 is only the organized players addition you [ have ] considered, sir?

Yes. That's correct.

If you could give us a sense in terms of export margin, how would that be in, let's say, 4Q and full year FY '23?

See I don't have it readily available, Achal. I'll come back to you on that.

And just one more question, if I may, with respect to price difference in terms of the thick and thin MDF compared to the imports, as we speak?

Okay. So currently, it would be on a range of about 10% to 20%. So if you look at the landed cost, there would be a difference of about 18% to 20%. But if you look at -- compare the prices, if they were to affect delivery and the customers go down, then probably the range would be somewhere between 10% to 12%.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Sneha Talreja from Nuvama Wealth.

Just wanted to understand on the industry aspect, you mentioned the industry capacity to be 2.3 million cubic meters. What would be the industry size? And what would have been the growth rate in FY '23, if at all, you can you just elaborate that?

Okay. So it was approximately about 1.75 million cubic meters at the end of FY '22. And during the year, we estimate that approximately another 2.25 -- sorry, approximately about 225,000 cubic meters to 250,000 cubic meters would have been added to the market during FY '23.

And in terms of -- I mean, crores, if at all, you can mention even value terms, that will be really helpful?

It's very difficult to mention in value terms because the unorganized does not provide full invoices to its customers. So it's difficult to give a growth in value terms because you have prices ranging from -- if you look at our realizations, our blended realizations would be around 33,000 for the domestic segment. Whereas if you look at some of the competitors, they are probably around [ 24,000 to 25,000 ].

But the volumes include the unorganized part also, right? The one that you mentioned, [ 1.75 ]?

Correct. That's correct.

And is it fair to assume that this particular quarter, the decline that you saw in the domestic market was also because of some amount of imports replacing the domestic volumes, domestic players volume?

See I wouldn't say it's replaced, I would say, rather it took away growth from the organized players. We did lose market share. So if you look at -- if you compare quarter 3 to quarter 4, we didn't lose any volumes. In fact, I think we have achieved about an additional 1,000 cubic meters volumes during Q4, as compared to Q3. So I would say, we could not get the growth that happened during the market in the last quarter.

The next question is from the line of Karan Bhatelia from Asian Markets Securities.

Sir, you mentioned about 12% to 15% volume growth in FY '24. So can we further split it into export growth and domestic growth?

See, I think we are targeting double-digit growth -- sorry, I would say, a low double-digit growth in the domestic segment and more than a 20% growth in the export volumes.

And sir, how much has been the timber prices on a Y-o-Y basis in North and South because all these while I believe the inflation was only in North, but in last 3 months to 4 months, we have seen some escalation in South as well. So any comments over there?

Could you please repeat that question?

Sir on the timber cost escalation in North and South market on a Y-o-Y basis?

On a Y-on-Y basis. So at the end of Q4 -- or rather for Q4, FY '23, timber prices in North were ranging between INR 5.5 per kg to INR 5.6 per kg, whereas a year ago, it was about INR 4.3 per kg to INR 4.4 per kg. For the South, it was about INR 3.8 a kg to INR 3.9 a kg, whereas in Q4 last year, it was around INR 3.10 per kg to INR 3.20 per KG.

And prices are expected to now cool off? Or we'll continue to see some more escalation going ahead?

I don't think we are expecting any immediate cool off in prices. But yes, we expect stability in prices.

The next question is from the line of Darshit from RoboCapital.in.

Actually, I just have one question. So I just need a view on revenue and both EBITDA and PAT margins going forward in the next 2 years, 3 years and also for specifically FY '24, if you can? And also the key driver, which is like presume it is plywood and MDF itself?

Okay. Like we mentioned earlier, we are targeting a 12% to 15% volume growth in the MDF segment. And no, I think at the moment, we are not looking at any price growth, although, we will also endeavor to improve the values by increasing the mix of value-added products. And if you're looking for 3-year guidance, our endeavor would be to have an annual growth rate of about 10% to 15% in the MDF segment. And we expect margins to be stable in the range of 23% to 25% we mentioned earlier. Although, those margins are expected to come under pressure when the new capacity comes into commercial production because of lower capacity utilization expected on the enhanced capacity.

Next question is from the line of Praveen Sahay from Prabhudas Lilladher.

The first one is related to the MDF. In the last 4 quarters, if I look at the utilization level of the plants were quite fluctuating from 74% to 81%. So is there any seasonality on the Q-o-Q basis? And secondly, to the MDF, you are taking capacity expansion by 25%. So how you are looking at export and the domestic mix way forward?

Okay. Like we mentioned earlier, we are targeting a 12% to 15% volume growth in the current year, and it will be our endeavor to have the entire capacity -- current capacity utilized before the new unit comes into commercial production.

And how is the export and the domestic mix you are expecting?

Like mentioned, we are looking at low double-digit growth in the domestic volumes and 20% plus growth in the export volumes.

Okay. And is there a seasonality, sir, in the quarter-on-quarter?

No, there's not really any seasonality in the MDF business because it's all related to the interiors. So climatic conditions do not really impact the business.

And the next one is related to EBITDA per CBM, which has reduced for a quarter. So where you are seeing in the coming years, EBITDA per CBM number?

Okay. So if you look at the current quarter, I think it was to a significant extent also impacted by the adverse mix of domestic exports. So if you look at quarter 3, we had [ 79%, 21% ] share of domestic and exports. While in this quarter, the share was 69% domestic and 31% export. So that had a significant impact on the margins. But going forward, we expect EBITDA per cubic meter to be in the range of 6,500 per cubic meter to 7,500 per cubic meter.

And lastly, sir, on the CapEx number, if you can guide for '24, '25?

Okay. We have spent approximately INR 50 crores in FY '23. And I think probably a similar amount will be spent in FY '25. So I would estimate that most of the balance, approximately about INR 500 crores will be spent in FY '24.

The next question is from the line of Utkarsh Nopany from Haitong Securities.

Sir, my question is on MDF. So if we see like we have enhanced our MDF capacities from [ 1.4 lakh to 6.6 lakh ], I mean, despite that...

Utkarsh, you are not audible. Could you please repeat that question?

Sir, like my question is on MDF segment. So we have increased our MDF capacity from [ 5.4 lakh to 6.6 lakh ] and despite that, our volume has been in the domestic market hovering around [ 90,000 lakh to 1 lakh ] CBM over the past 7 consecutive quarters. And like given a lot of new MDF capacity is likely to come in the domestic market in the current fiscal, what gives us the confidence that we will be able to clock low double-digit kind of a volume growth in FY '24?

Okay. So if you look at it, domestic competition has not really had any impact on our performance. It's more imports, which have impacted our domestic performance. And I think going forward, imports will face challenges because of uncertainty over the imposition of ADD or [indiscernible] CVD, and their buyers would also be turning conservative because they will not like to take on additional risks on account of any additional duties on their account. So I think yes, going forward, domestic manufacturers will get a significant share of future market growth.

Sir, again, I'm coming on to this question. So if we see the annual import in FY '23 will not be more than 2 lakh, 2.5 lakh CBM, whereas in this fiscal, we are expecting significant amount of capacity to get added. So seeing a lot of supply side pressure coming in the domestic market, how we are confident that we can clock volume growth in FY '24?

Okay. So like I mentioned earlier, what is giving additional market share to imports, it's primarily because they are coming at a significantly lower price. But if we look at other domestic players, they are not at the same price, as imports. So new capacities, yes, those new capacities will be operating at low capacities. They will look at a larger share of exports. But they won't really look at gaining market share by cutting prices because I think everyone in the industry is more or less of the view that cutting prices does not give you increased market share because as soon as one cut prices others follow suit within the same day or the next day. So I don't think the increase in domestic capacity will really significantly impact our volumes.

And sir, second question is on the pricing side. So if we see the spread between the domestic and the export MDF realization, it is currently at a record high level in this March quarter. So do you expect the spread to remain at the current level? Or this spread might narrow down going forward?

See, it's come down to some extent in the current quarter. So we are taking new orders at prices, which were slightly higher, as compared to the March quarter. But yes, going forward, this will significantly depend upon how imports are -- whether imports continue to grow or whether imports will decline in the future. Because just like imports are having an impact in India, they are also having an impact on our export markets, most of which are located in the Middle East. So a significant impact -- increase in export realizations will depend on future imports from countries like Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, et cetera.

Next question is from the line of Hrishikesh Bhagat from Kotak Asset Management.

So my first question is when we -- how should we look at this investment in A&P spend. Now if I understand historically, MDF has been largely a B2B or where the product is sold to OEM. So has there been any change in acceptance that we require or in retail level increasing acceptance that will require investment on the A&P spend [indiscernible] or is it just probably spend to create a platform for probably in future if we want to diversify on the retail any product on the B2C side?

No. I think awareness in the market for MDF has definitely increased. People are now aware of what the product is. And now it is no longer, let's say, a commoditized product. And brand -- going forward, we perceive that going forward, a brand would play a very important role in the [indiscernible] or the overall business growth. And we, obviously, in the pricing premium in the market that we will be able to obtain, as opposed to other competition in the unorganized segment. So -- and as a company, as we mentioned earlier as well, we feel that this spend would bring mileage not only on the MDF business, but also on our private business as well. And hence, we were waiting for the right moment and the right opportunity to start this activity. And we saw that IPL would be a good platform to initiate this and we had -- we started this accordingly.

And secondly, when we spoke about probably somewhere around 7% to 10% difference between imported MDF and domestic, this is for which grade of MDF?

So we are primarily talking about the plain MDF, which is a primary product that is being imported into the country. And when I say plain MDF, it is also the basic grade of MDF, which is called the industrial grade. As we mentioned, this difference to be around 10% to 20% depending on the geography of where we are comparing. But it would be primarily for the plain MDF.

Next question is from the line of Nikhil Gada from Abakkus Asset Management.

Sir, my first question is on the MDF margins for the quarter. Can you sort of break it up for us in terms of how much of an impact was because of the mix between exports and domestic? And how much was because of the RM inflation that [ we ] have seen in timber prices?

See if you look at the mix of domestic and exports, like I mentioned, in comparison to Q3, the domestic mix was [ 69% versus 79% ] in Q3. So that had an impact of approximately 250 basis points on the margins. And raw material costs did not have a significant impact on the overall margins. But yes, again, it would be in the range of about 100 basis points to 120 basis points.

And regarding this, I understand in terms of the impact of imports, but because of the RM inflation, do you try to or you're planning to take any price increase in the market to sort of [ arrive just fall ]?

See at the moment, I don't think pricing is an issue. We are not looking at increasing prices currently because we have capacity in hand, which has to be exhausted before the new capacity comes into production. So I think we would primarily be looking at market share gains rather than increase in prices.

And sir, just on this guidance for 24% around -- 23% to 25% EBITDA margins, when you gave the numbers of volume, so basically, the export mix comes to be 25% for FY '24. So this 23% to 25%, is this guidance as in [indiscernible] -- or do you feel that if, let's say, the ADD comes in, this can go further higher?

See, this is keeping into condition the existing market conditions. So if there's any sort of new duties coming in on imports, we would definitely be looking at a significant increase in the domestic volumes.

Sir, I'm talking about margins, sorry.

So yes, increase in domestic volumes would have a favorable impact on the margins.

And sir, my second question is on the plywood part. You mentioned that we are doing some restructuring in the business. Could you sort of give some understanding of what we are trying to achieve over here?

When -- then we say restructuring, basically, there is a -- in the entire sort of distribution network with regards to how the sales team is operating. We are relooking at the entire business model because initially, we were -- we were not very -- let's say, we were not inclined towards any further investment or substantial material growth in this existing capacity that we had. But now we're of the opinion that this is an important business for us. Our aim is to settle the existing capacities, run it at a consistent full capacity for 6 month to 8 months. And then, we are even inclined to look at further opportunities of growth in our existing capacities by way of maybe new investments as well. So hence, we are relooking at the plywood business model in a different light.

And sir, last question, for the time line for the MDF expansion, which was, I assume 2Q FY '25. So it's still the same time line or are there some extension?

Yes. That's very much on track. We would start receiving machineries in towards the middle of the year [indiscernible].

[Technical Difficulty] Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your patience. We have the line for the management reconnected. Sir, you may go ahead.

Sorry, apologies about that. No. So the time line for the new project still stands as initially communicated.

And sir, just last on the value-added mix, if you can highlight this 4Q FY '23 for MDF versus last year?

You're [ wanting ] Q-on-Q?

Q-on-Q and year-over-year would be great, sir?

Okay. So Q-on-Q, the mix was about came -- it was about [ 15%] share in domestic volumes and 62% in value terms. And if we look year-on-year, it was 39% in volume terms and 46% in value terms.

46% in value.

Next question is from the line of Monish Ghodke from HDFC Mutual Fund.

Sir, why are plywood realizations have come down on a Q-on-Q basis when timber prices are going up?

Yes. It was primarily because of a change in product mix. So our volumes had come down in the decorative veneer segment. And decorative veneer realizations are approximately 2.5x price of normal plywood sheet. So that had an impact on the blended realization for plywood.

Okay. And sir, what would be our plywood EBITDA margin for FY '24?

We are targeting 8% to 10% EBITDA margin for FY '24.

And volume growth?

Again, we are targeting a double-digit volume growth in plywood.

Okay. And sir, what is your view on timber prices for FY '24 and '25 for North and South?

When you say -- we are expecting the timber prices to be stable at the current levels. We don't see any major hikes in timber costs in the current financial year.

The next question is from the line of Nikhil Agarwal from VT Capital Markets.

Sir, my question was on the export realizations. They have, again, like fallen down quarter-on-quarter. I believe that is on account of the price cuts you had taken in December. But like are we seeing any bottoming out of the realizations because like we heard there was some rumor that some player has increased prices in the international market? So are we seeing that this is the bottoming out of the realization?

Yes. We already have taken price increases in the export segment ourselves as well. But due to the backlog of orders that we have in our books, we would probably start seeing the effect of that from quarter 2.

And sir, what sort of price hikes have you taken? Can you quantify that?

Between 8% to 10%.

And sir, what currently between the organized and unorganized players, what would be the price differential?

See, it's very difficult to mention the price difference between organized and unorganized players, primarily because some of the unorganized players do not provide a full invoice to their customers. So it ranges between -- anywhere between INR 22,000 to INR 25,000 per cubic meter.

And sir, currently, like last question, what is the demand situation currently? How is it panning out in quarter 1?

Demand is reasonably good. So I think we are guiding for the estimates for the current year on the basis of that.