Home / Transcripts / Inventiva S.A. (IVA) · June 16, 2020

Inventiva S.A. (IVA) Earnings Call Transcript

June 16, 2020

Euronext Paris FR Health Care Biotechnology special 74 min

Earnings Call Speaker Segments

Operator operator
#1

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by, and welcome to Inventiva's NATIVE Phase IIb top line results in NASH. [Operator Instructions] I must advise you the call is recorded today, Tuesday, the 16th of June, 2020. I would now like to hand over to your first speaker today, Mr. Frederic Cren. Please go ahead.

Frederic Cren executive
#2

Hello, [Foreign Language]. Very pleased to welcome you on this webcast. Of course, you can understand from the tone of my voice that I'm extremely satisfied and pleased with what lanifibranor has shown in the NATIVE Phase IIb data. We really believe we have a compound that is active in NASH, and the data has clearly established that and we are in a very good position for the next step that include also a Phase III. I will be sharing the floor today with Pierre, who will go through the presentation with Marie-Paule Richard, our CMO, and also we're very pleased to have our both PI of the study, Sven Francque from the University of Antwerp and Professor Manal Abdelmalek from Duke University. It's great to have them with us, and they'll be able to answer all of your questions. And then, of course, as I just mentioned, at the end of the presentation given by Pierre, we will have a Q&A session to address all of your questions. So Pierre, with that.

Pierre Broqua executive
#3

Yes. Thank you, Frederic. So good morning, everybody. Yes, we are very excited to share with you the good news on the outcome of the NATIVE trial with lanifibranor in NASH. And before diving into the data, I would like to go through a few highlights. So firstly, lanifibranor has met the primary endpoint with statistically significant reduction after 6 months of treatment with the 1,200-milligram dose of the Steatosis, Activity, Fibrosis score. The SAF score, which you know combines hepatocellular inflammation and ballooning, is with no worsening of fibrosis both in the intention to treat and the per protocol populations. Lanifibranor also met key secondary endpoints including NASH resolution with no worsening of fibrosis and improvement of liver fibrosis with no worsening of NASH. And here again, in both ITT and per protocol populations. What comes out from this trial is that actually lanifibranor is the first drug candidate to achieve a statistically significant effect on the FDA and EMA primary endpoints that are relevant for seeking accelerated approval, meaning NASH resolution with no worsening of fibrosis and improvement of fibrosis with no worsening of NASH. Lanifibranor continue to show a favorable safety and tolerability profile. And this positive top line results support Inventiva's decision to move forward with the clinical development of lanifibranor and to enter into a pivotal Phase III trial. So you're all very familiar with the profile of Lanifibranor. But as a recap, it's a pan-PPAR agonist with moderate and well-balanced activity on the 3 PPAR isoforms, PPAR alpha, PPAR delta and gamma. And as you know, there is a strong scientific rationale supporting the concept that this unique mechanism of action would be very well suited for the treatment of NASH with the potential to address most, if not all, features of NASH, and particularly steatohepatitis and fibrosis. And as shown in long-term nonclinical tox studies as well as recent clinical study, lanifibranor is well tolerated and safe. Next slide. So in that context, the NATIVE trial investigated the efficacy and safety of 2 doses of lanifibranor in patients with biopsy-proven NASH and the combined score of inflammation and ballooning of at least 2 points out of a maximum of 4, as determined by using the SAF score. As recently communicated, by using this inclusion criteria, we successfully randomized the population of severe patients, with 73% of the patients having a NASH score equal or superior to 6 and 76% having fibrosis F2 or F3 score. The study randomized a total of 247 patients and was stratified on type 2 diabetes status. So I will present the data in 2 populations: the intention to treat or ITT population, which is also the safety population and defined by the 247 patients, randomized, having received at least one dose of lanifibranor or placebo. And the per protocol population, or PP, defined as patients randomized, having paired biopsies and no deviation impacting efficacy reserves. These deviations could be, for example, alcohol consumption or use of forbidden concomitant medication. So in the next slide, this is really just a reminder that the NATIVE trial is a global study with a total of 71 sites, North America, so Canada and the U.S., in Europe, in Australia as well as in Mauritius. So in terms of efficacy endpoints, the primary endpoint was the decrease from baseline to week 24 of at least 2 points of inflammation and ballooning and no worsening of fibrosis as measured by the SAF score. The secondary endpoint on which we will show you data today, our resolution of NASH and no worsening of fibrosis, improvement of fibrosis by at least one stage and no worsening of NASH, resolution of NASH and improvement of fibrosis by at least one stage and then several endpoints related to [ metabolic ] factors such as change in glucose metabolism parameters, like fasting glucose and insulin, glycated hemoglobin, change in liver function test, ALT, AST, GGT, change in main plasma lipid parameters, we will see HDL cholesterol, LDL cholesterol and triglyceride. And the other outcome measures like inflammatory and fibrosis biomarkers are still under evaluation and will be communicated later. So the -- this slide is just to remind you that the NATIVE trial uses both the SAF and the NASH scoring system. The primary endpoint, which is, again, a decrease of 2 points of SAF activity score and no worsening of fibrosis, obviously, uses the SAF score, whereas the endpoint resolution of NASH with no worsening of fibrosis uses the NASH score as did most of the recent trials with competing drugs. And fibrosis improvement was measured using the CRN fibrosis score, as did recent trials with competing drugs. So in terms of patient disposition. So 247 patients randomized and treated. We had 81 patients randomized and treated in the placebo arm, 83 in the 800-milligram and 83 in the 1,200-milligram arm. 91% of patients completed the 40-week treatment in the placebo group and 93% in each lanifibranor treated groups. The number of dropouts and dropouts due to AEs were well balanced between the 3 arms. We had 9% of dropouts in the placebo arm and 7% in each lanifibranor treated arm. There were 3 dropouts due to adverse events in the placebo group and 3 dropouts due to adverse events in each lanifibranor treated arm. So in terms of patient baseline demographics and characteristics. There was overall 58% of females, a mean weight of 93 kilos, a mean BMI of 32.9, 42% of NASH patients with type 2 diabetes and all were well-balanced between the 3 arms. We had an overall mean SAF activity score of 3.3, well balanced between the 3 arms. Overall, we had 73 of patients with a NASH score equal or above 6, with slightly more patients with a NASH score equal to or above 6 in the lanifibranor treated arms relatively to the placebo. There was overall 76% of patients with an F2 or an F3 score. And here again, with slightly more F2 or F3 patients in the lanifibranor treated arms relatively to placebo. Baseline liver enzymes were in the range of what is expected in this patient population. Triglyceride levels were borderline high and HDL cholesterol borderline low, also in line with expected levels in this patient population. And in diabetic patients, all had glycated hemoglobin of 6.5 or above and were well-balanced between the 3 arms. Okay. Next. So now the results. So in this slide, you can see that lanifibranor met the primary endpoint with a highly significant effect achieved at the dose of 1,200 milligram in both the ITT and per protocol populations after 6 months of treatment. 49% and 55% of patients fitted with the 1,200-milligram dose had a reduction of 2 points of their combined score of inflammation and ballooning with no worsening of fibrosis in the ITT and the per protocol populations, respectively. There was a positive trend with the 800-milligram dose, with 41% and 51% responders in the ITT and the per protocol populations, respectively, but this did not meet statistical significance. So in conclusion, lanifibranor met the primary endpoint in both ITT and per protocol population. Regarding resolution of NASH and no worsening of fibrosis. Lanifibranor produced a dose-dependent and significant effect on the resolution of NASH with no worsening of fibrosis at both the 800- and 1,200-milligram doses. In the ITT population, 33% and 45% of patients achieved resolution of NASH with no worsening of fibrosis after 6 months of treatment with the 800- and 1,200-milligram dose, respectively. And in the per protocol population, this endpoint was met by 40% and 49% of patients with lanifibranor 800 and 1,200 milligram, respectively. If we look now specifically to the F2 and F3 patients, which constitute the typical Phase III population, we see actually that the high level of efficacy of lanifibranor is maintained with [ both ] doses being highly significant. In the ITT and per protocol populations, if we look at the size of the effect relatively to placebo, there are nearly 4 and 5x more patients achieving resolution of NASH without worsening of fibrosis at the 800- and 1,200-milligram dose, respectively, when compared again to placebo. Now regarding improvement of fibrosis and no worsening of NASH. After 6 months of treatment, lanifibranor also improved fibrosis by at least one stage without worsening of NASH, with highly significant effect at 1,200 milligrams in the ITT and the per protocol populations. At this dose, 42% and 46% of patients improved fibrosis by at least one stage without worsening of NASH in the ITT and per protocol populations, respectively. Now very interestingly, if we look now at the number of patients that improved for both resolution of NASH and fibrosis, we see a highly significant effect of lanifibranor at 800 and 1,200 milligram with 3 and 4x more patients having NASH resolution and fibrosis improvement in the 800- and 1,200-milligram dose, respectively, compared to the placebo and the ITT population. Now regarding liver enzyme ALT, AST and GGT. All were quickly, so within a month, brought back to normal levels and was maintained to such levels all along the study time course. If we move now to lipid, we see that on the lipid profile, as previously observed in our Phase IIa, both doses of lanifibranor rapidly increased HDL cholesterol and decreased plasma triglyceride. There was no change in LDL cholesterol. So in NASH patients with type 2 diabetes, both doses produced a quick and highly significant decrease in fasting glucose as well as a decrease in insulin levels, indicating improvement of insulin sensitivity. Glycated hemoglobin was reduced by more than 0.5% in the overall diabetic population. So in terms of safety, lanifibranor continues to show a favorable safety and tolerability profile, which is consistent with observations from previous clinical trials. I'll start with the serious adverse events. There were a total of 13 serious adverse events. We had 3 SAEs in the placebo group, 2 of which were one mild cardiac failure and one moderate urticaria. There were 3 SAEs in the 800-milligram group and 7 in the 1,200-milligram group, and we will see the details of those serious adverse events in the next slide. These adverse events, AEs, were generally mild to moderate in severity. Yes. Thank you. Back to the slide. There were 5 regulated AEs leading to drug withdrawal, 2 in the placebo group; one in the 800-milligram group, which was moderate diarrhea; and 2 in the 1,200-milligram group with one mild cardiac failure and one mild diarrhea. Regarding body weight, and consistent with known insulin sanitizing pharmacology, a modest weight increase was observed with a mean of 2.4 kilos in the 800-milligram group and 2.7 kilos in the 1,200-milligram group. And regarding edema, we had a total of 14, 1-4, patients that reported peripheral edema, 2 in the placebo group, 5 in the 800-milligram dose group and 7 in the 1,200-milligram group. All of them except one were of mild intensity, all were transient. There were only 2 patients with treatment-related peripheral edema in each lanifibranor treatment arm, and that there was no treatment discontinuation due to edema. Now regarding the serious adverse events I was talking about on the previous slide. So as I mentioned, there were 13, 1-3, serious adverse events, 3 in the placebo arm, 3 in the 800-milligram per day arm and 7 in 1,200-milligram per day arm. After excluding biopsy-related serious adverse events, there were 3 SAs in the placebo group which was one risk factor, one cardiac failure, one urticaria. There were 2 SAEs in the 800-milligram group, one pancreatitis, one undifferentiated connective tissue disease. And there were 4 SAEs in the 1,200-milligram per day dose group, one angina and stable, one gastroenteritis, one pyelonephritis and one foot operation. So to put this efficacy data in perspective, we can see here that compared to other Phase IIb data, lanifibranor is the only product that induced NASH resolution with no worsening of fibrosis in more than 40% of patients, and this after only 6 months of treatment. And likewise, regarding fibrosis, lanifibranor is the only product that induced fibrosis improvement with no worsening of NASH in more than 40% of patients. So in conclusion. Lanifibranor met the primary endpoint with a statistically significant reduction after 6 months of treatment of the SAF score combining hepatocellular ballooning and inflammation, with no worsening of fibrosis in both populations. Lanifibranor also met the key secondary endpoints in the ITT and per protocol population. Lanifibranor is the only product that has shown a statistically significant effect on the 2 key endpoints of NASH resolution with no worsening of fibrosis and improvement of fibrosis with no worsening of NASH. The product continues to show a favorable safety and tolerability profile. And this result is really motivating us to move forward and enter into a pivotal Phase III trial. And the next steps are finalization of Phase III synopsis and protocol, which is ongoing. We plan to meet with FDA for an end of Phase II meeting and EMA for a scientific advice meeting in Q4 this year. We are going to finalize also the other Phase IIa study, which is running at University of Florida with Professor Cusi testing the effect of lanifibranor 800 milligram in NAFLD and diabetic patients on insulin resistance, liver-related insulin sensitivity. And of course, the plan is to launch pivotal Phase III trial in NASH. And before turning to the Q&A session, I would like to extend my deepest thank you to patients, caregivers, investigators, advisers and our team for their continued confidence, relentless dedication and strong commitment throughout this trial. Thank you very much.

Frederic Cren executive
#4

Thank you, Pierre. And so operator, now we can move to the Q&A session.

Operator operator
#5

[Operator Instructions] And your first question today comes from the line of Lucy Codrington.

Lucy-Emma Codrington-Bartlett analyst
#6

I've got a couple, please. So firstly, with the weight gain, when did that occur? Does it kind of occur consistently or is it a very near-term effect? And would that be expected to continue to increase with longer treatment duration? Secondly, were there any drug interruptions required related to the adverse events? And then I know you were going to look at the performance between diabetics and nondiabetics. Is there any difference in the response rates between those populations, if that data is available yet?

Frederic Cren executive
#7

Okay. Lucy, thanks for your question. So 3 questions. Pierre, do you want to tackle those?

Pierre Broqua executive
#8

Yes, the last one actually. So yes, we analyzed the data according to diabetic status, at least from the key parameters that I presented, and there is no difference. Actually, the drug is active, as efficacious in -- on the parameters in diabetic patients as in nondiabetic patients. Regarding body weight gain, when this -- we don't have the -- as of today, I don't have the precise answer to your question about when did this body weight gain occur. I think that it goes along with anyhow, improvement of insulin sensitivity. You know that this is -- this body weight gain is just due to the fact that you restore the activity of the adipocyte, which under insulin resistance status, is dysfunctional and leading to the accumulation of fat ectopically into, for example, into the liver or into a set of muscles or into the heart. And when you correct this, when you improve insulin sensitivity in the adipocyte and the adipocyte is now capable to store fat again so, the body weight gain is, I would say, good, healthy weight gain goes along with improvement of insulin sensitivity. So I think that 2 together would probably be improving at the same pace, I would say. Then your question about drug interaction potentially explaining adverse events. So we have quite a compelling package of drug-drug interaction studies performed with lanifibranor, and there is absolutely no risk of [ DDI ]. So I don't think that the serious adverse events that we are -- that we have in the study, are linked to drug-drug interaction.

Lucy-Emma Codrington-Bartlett analyst
#9

It was good to know that the drug-drug interactions -- I was -- I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant drug interruptions. So were there any patients that had to have their dosing paused, for instance, the patients with the peripheral edema or did they continue the treatment with no pauses?

Pierre Broqua executive
#10

No. No, they all continued the treatment. There was no dropouts due to peripheral edema.

Operator operator
#11

Your next question comes from the line of Lenny Van Steenhuyse.

Lenny Van Steenhuyse analyst
#12

I was actually looking at the [ F2/F3 ] population, showed an interesting difference in placebo rates while maintaining high responder rates in the treatment arm for NASH resolution. So I was wondering is this effect restricted to NASH resolution or do you also see differences in fibrosis improvement responses along patients in different stages of fibrosis?

Pierre Broqua executive
#13

So yes, we've made the analyzed on the F2 and F3 subgroup versus the overall population for NASH resolution. And as you have seen, we have observed a very significant improvement of NASH resolution without worsening of fibrosis in this F2 population, which is the population to be used in Phase III. And we have done that also for the fibrosis improvement without worsening of NASH. And the results in terms of effect size is identical to what we see in the global population, okay. So we have not performed the statistical analysis yet, but the size of the effect regarding improvement of fibrosis and no worsening of NASH is identical in the F2, F3 population compared to the overall population, the data you've seen.

Lenny Van Steenhuyse analyst
#14

Yes, okay. That's clear. Now you have a compound that's, of course, partly an insulin sensitizer so there's a rationale here for looking at more early stages of disease. On the other hand, you're showing impressive data on fibrosis so that may raise questions on the drug's potential perhaps in an F4 setting. So based on this kind of data set, what kind of opportunities are you looking for, for lanifibranor beyond the F2, F3 segment? Is that something that you're looking into at this point?

Pierre Broqua executive
#15

Yes, that's a great question, actually. So you've seen the size of the effect of the drug on fibrosis improvement in this population. And as I said, the effect is the same in the F2 and F3 population, indicating that there is really a noticeable [ mechanism ] of action that actually kicks in quite rapidly because this is the first time we see such an effect after 6 months. So yes, there is -- if you -- if we add to that a number of preclinical studies we have recently completed and communicated at ASLD last year, where we've seen a major improvement of not only liver fibrosis but also portal pressure in models of cirrhosis, there is certainly an opportunity also for lanifibranor in the F4 population.

Lenny Van Steenhuyse analyst
#16

Okay. Perhaps a very last question from my end. Looking at patient recruitment, this was, of course, mainly skewed towards Europe in this case. I was wondering whether or not there are particular differences in European and U.S. NASH populations. Are these more or less heterogeneous? Or are they really indistinguishable. Just to have a feel if you have a Phase III population with perhaps more U.S. patients, could that make a difference? Or is this really a very broad effect?

Pierre Broqua executive
#17

Yes, no. So we have not performed fully the analysis. From what I have seen roughly, there is no major difference, no difference between Europe and U.S. responders. But again, this is part of the work that we are now doing in term of data crunching to be able to design the most appropriate Phase III study in term of endpoints, of dose, of population et cetera.

Frederic Cren executive
#18

Maybe Sven and Manal, as you have had a patient in this trial, do you want to answer the question if there are, according to you, significant differences among patients between U.S. and Europe?

Sven Francque executive
#19

Well, I think that we know, of course, that some of the problems, namely of obesity is, perhaps a little bit more severe in the U.S. than in Europe, but I think that roughly the phenotypes of the patients are quite comparable.

Manal Abdelmalek executive
#20

I agree completely. This is Manal Abdelmalek. And while the underlying risk factors related to lifestyle and dietary drivers for disease may vary across different regions of the world, the primary inclusion criteria of definite NASH with fibrosis and the treatment effect noted is not determined by the risk factors as it is in effect a measurement of therapeutic effect. So we will learn more about regional, global and lifestyle variants as we embark on larger Phase III global trials.

Operator operator
#21

Your next question comes from the line of Patrick Dolezal.

Patrick Dolezal analyst
#22

A few for me. So first off, do you anticipate deeper improvements on NASH disease or fibrosis with a longer dosing period? And what duration study do you imagine for the subsequent Phase III? Is that likely to be similar in length or more likely to be in the 12-month range?

Frederic Cren executive
#23

Good question. I'll give it a try first, and then maybe, Pierre, Manal and Sven can complete. In the Phase III, I would say, it's a bit too early. We really need to deep dive in the data. I think one thing we have learned from this trial is that, I think it was a well-designed trial because we gave it a lot of thought, a lot of work and we look to do exactly the same for the Phase III. I think we have an amazing set of data with this NATIVE trial and that will help us design the best trial. What is the dose, first? What is the duration? We've seen a significant effect on both endpoints at 6 months. Can we build on that? What is the endpoint we should put forward and discuss? And that's why the team is already working on preparing the discussion with FDA that is planned in the fall and the scientific advice with EMA. [ Do no -- ] Pierre, Manal, Sven, anything else to add?

Pierre Broqua executive
#24

Fully agree.

Manal Abdelmalek executive
#25

Fully agree.

Sven Francque executive
#26

Yes. Me too.

Patrick Dolezal analyst
#27

Great. And on the safety side, can you provide a little bit of detail on the AE of mild cardiac failure and how that's defined clinically. And considering there was one case in the placebo arm and one case in the lanifibranor -- in one of the lanifibranor arms, did the presentation of this AE differ between the 2 patients? And I guess, more specifically, did it occur in the lanifibranor arm concurrently with other signs of congestive heart failure, such as edema, rapid weight gain, ISMEA, et cetera?

Pierre Broqua executive
#28

So we -- today, what we have, like mentioned, one case of heart failure in the placebo group, one case in the 1,200-milligram dose group and one case in the 800-milligram dose group. So we need to go back to these details and particularly look at the history of the patients. And today, I cannot give you the details that you are requesting simply because we have not done yet the full analysis of this safety event.

Patrick Dolezal analyst
#29

Okay. And I guess, for both of our physicians on the line. Do you currently treat NASH patients with pioglitazone? Why or why not? And how is edema, weight gain, risk of CHF tolerated in this patient population? And then I guess, how do you think about the prospects of using lani versus pio? Obviously, there's some mechanistic differences but would love to hear your perspective on that.

Sven Francque executive
#30

Well, from my side, in Belgium, there are strict limitations in the reimbursement of pioglitazone. So we have a few patients that are treated with pioglitazone but that's always in close collaboration with the diabetologists because they are allowed to prescribe it and I, as a hepatologist, I am not. Now overall, the side effects are rather mild. Of course, we should be careful in comparing populations because we know that -- I think the few cases we have observed in NATIVE with some fluid retention are far beyond what is globally reported for pioglitazone. But of course, we should take into account that you cannot compare straight away the population. So that's something to take into account. But globally, I think this compound appears to be quite safe compared to pioglitazone, and as you pointed out yourself, there are mechanistic differences that might help us to explain this difference. So I think that with the results we have here in the metabolic profile, I think this is a major -- potential major step forward. And I, of course -- we feel quite confident to use these kind of drugs for patients with NASH, given their particular phenotype.

Manal Abdelmalek executive
#31

In response to your excellent question, here in the U.S., I have utilized pioglitazone in the treatment of NASH for patients with diabetes. In other words, patients who otherwise had an indication for insulin sensitizing agent for the treatment of their diabetes and such practices in keeping with the guidances of the American Association for the Study of Liver Disease. With that being said, however, the utilization of pioglitazone in general and even in my own clinical practice for use in patients with NASH is steadily dropping in light of the broader landscape and armamentarium of medications that is currently available for the treatment of diabetes. So as opposed to 8 years ago or 5 years ago, I utilized pioglitazone in my clinical practice very rarely in the present day.

Operator operator
#32

The next question comes from the line of [ Derrick Arquilla ].

Unknown Analyst analyst
#33

Congrats, Frederic and Pierre, on the data. Just a couple of questions from us. And just first on edema. It looked like there was a very low rate in the study. That was great. So just wanted to get a sense of whether you'd expect any changes with a longer study of 12 to 18 months potentially in Phase III? And if not, what mechanistically gives you confidence that you might not see an increased rate of edema in a longer study? And then second question on a Phase III study design, if you can give us any color in terms of whether or not you bring in multiple doses. I mean, it looks like the 800 mg is definitely active. And just wondering, again, if the longer duration of treatment, 12 to 18 months, you can also see some good results there?

Frederic Cren executive
#34

Thank you, Derrick. So on the edema, from what I remember, they tend to appear at the beginning of the study. So what would you say...

Pierre Broqua executive
#35

Yes, yes, yes. Certainly, yes, we have seen this rather early in the study. I think that from the experience we had also in the SSc trial lasting 12 months, the appearance of edema started quite soon. There was no increase between the 6 and the 12 months. You can also refer to studies with Pio, for example, where you can see that the frequency of edema is occurring rather soon. And to put things on perspective, nevertheless, I would like to restate the fact that the edema that we see in our trial in terms of frequency is much lower to what is reported with Pio. For example, if you look at Pio frequency of edema after 6 months of treatment, if you look at the Pio 45 milligram, you can have, according to different studies, between 14% and 23% of patients showing edema. Whereas in our 6 months trial, we have only 6% to 8% of patients. And this, despite the fact that, in contrast to Pio, we have a very strong effect on fibrosis and on NASH resolution. And also mention the fact that we -- in the study, we didn't have any dropout due to edema. So I think that we are much, much better than what has been reported for by Pio on this edema. And regarding your question on whether a longer duration of treatment with 800 could reveal an efficacy close to 1,200, this is a possibility, I think so. It's interesting to see that on the metabolic parameters, actually the 2 doses are actually efficacious. So it could be that an effect of the 800-milligram dose in fibrosis, for example, could occur between 6 and 12 months to a level that what has been achieved with the 1,200 milligram. This is a possibility. We will look at that more closely by digging into the data.

Operator operator
#36

Your next question comes from the line of Ed Arce.

Antonio Arce analyst
#37

Congrats on this fantastic data set. Really, a landmark with the first results, even at 6 months, to show positive results on both FDA-acceptable endpoints. Around that, first question is, you saw some pretty significant results in both resolution of NASH and fibrosis. And I noted that, that was in spite of some fairly high placebo rates, 34% placebo rate in the primary endpoint. And even on the improvement of fibrosis, that was a 29% placebo rate. So the first question is around that, and your comments around it seems fairly high compared to other studies. Also, I know you've kind of touched upon this, but have you decided on a particular dose to move forward with Phase III? And could there be 2 doses tested in a pivotal study. And then one last question on the phase -- or excuse me, the fibrosis 2, fibrosis 3 baseline for the 76% of patients that had that, you noted that, that was the slight higher in the 2 lani arms versus the placebo. I'm wondering if that could have any -- had any potential impact on the fibrosis improvement that you saw.

Frederic Cren executive
#38

On the placebo.

Pierre Broqua executive
#39

Yes. So okay, so the placebo effect, yes. Well, on the primary endpoint, this was the first study, really, where measuring the 2 points of reduction of activity of the SAF score. So yes, so it was unprecedented. So we had the placebo rate that we had, and that's the [ point ]. The NASH resolution, the placebo was within the range, I would say, of what has been reported for the semaglutide or even the elafibranor Phase III trial, 15%, 17%. The fibrosis improvement, placebo effect, was in the range of what is reported, 24%. But whatever the placebo size -- actually lanifibranor, we've managed to produce a specifically significant effect relatively to placebo, which again, is a testimony to the good efficacy of the drug.

Frederic Cren executive
#40

And the last -- and I think to your last question, Ed, about higher percentage of VRF 1 in the placebo group, yes, we noticed that as well. And this is part of the sub-analysis we absolutely need to do because, yes, that could be one explanation for explaining some of the placebo effects that we have seen. Clearly, there is a bit of imbalance with a bit more severe patients in the lani-treated group. So well spotted.

Antonio Arce analyst
#41

Great. And then one follow-up for me. In terms of the edema, you noted already that there were no dropouts due to this side effect. But do you -- and as well, is this something that you've noted in this study -- in prior studies that is early. But given all of that, in a longer-term study, do you think this could present with any sort of longer-term cardiovascular risks? And if so, is there any thought about potential mitigations around that?

Pierre Broqua executive
#42

I think that the -- as I mentioned, the nature of the edemas were really mild, mild to moderate. They were transient. I mean, most of the patients were treated by diuretics, and then there was no dropout due to edema. So on the long run, as I mentioned to the previous question, is the -- I think that edema is occurring early in the course of the treatment. We don't expect to see a massive increase in the number of edemas when increasing the length of the study. So yes, so far, again, the edema were mild and transient so I don't think this poses a risk of cardiovascular events on the patient.

Antonio Arce analyst
#43

Okay. Just a follow-up then on a previous question. Do you have a sense yet for 1 or 2 doses going into the pivotal study?

Pierre Broqua executive
#44

So no, we -- again, we need to analyze the whole set of data. I think that we are in a very good position because we have -- well, efficacy -- static efficacy demonstrated with 2 doses. We have a number of potential endpoints. So yes, we dig into the data, we will discuss the proposal with regulatory authorities, and then, of course, we'll come back to you as soon as we have agreed on the Phase III protocol to move forward. But we have many options, and I think it's a good place to be.

Antonio Arce analyst
#45

Great. Congrats again on the data.

Operator operator
#46

Your next question comes from the line of Delphine Le Louet.

Delphine Le Louet analyst
#47

Effectively, it's an amazing day today for all the NASH patient, and congrats to all the team in Inventiva. It's been a very complicated journey, but well done so far. Two questions on clinical points and 2 other questions regarding the outlook for the future. So back into the clinical, do you have in the data pack -- can you hear me well? Yes. So do you have in the data pack some data regarding the volumetry of the liver? Second question deals with the weight over the 6 months period that you had. Do we have any change into the BMI? Or do we have something significant out there? Then the question more broadly regarding what's going to be next and effectively regarding duration of the Phase III, 6 months, 12 months extension, 24 months, 1, 2 dosage, how it's going to be? What sort of bracket in terms of financing do you estimate? Are you in the range of, let's say, $140 million to $250 million for the Phase III?

Pierre Broqua executive
#48

So we have -- among the biomarkers, I think we have a couple of assays measuring liver [ thickness ] that we have not analyzed yet. But this will be -- as soon as we have them -- as you know, we, of course, we plan to -- the number of effects in ASLDs, so that will be part of it. And we plan also to publish the data anyhow in a peer-reviewed journal at high level. So everything will be available. Regarding weight. So a question on BMI, we have not measured BMI. The main increase in body weight we see is in the range of 2.5 kilos. And that compares again very favorably to Pio. Because for example, in the 6 months, that trial with Pio, you had also an increase of 2.5 kilo, but the pioglitazone trial was actually performed in patients with -- under hypocaloric diet. Whereas in our trial, there was no diet restriction. We know that we can mitigate body weight gain by half when requesting for patients a diet restriction and a hypocaloric diet. To your point of BMI, we have not -- I don't have the data on BMI. The duration of study, I think that Frederic, you can...

Frederic Cren executive
#49

So yes, the duration of study, so we need to work, we need to sit down with the FDA, EMA. For the moment, we already have worked on the protocol. And to do that, we based our hypothesis on the trial performed by Intercept, for example, or GENFIT in the Phase III. Of course, we need to amend and improve this protocol, given the data from NATIVE. But if we take a trial similar to what Intercept has done, we estimate that we needed roughly in EUR 100 million to get to the conditional approval and something in the range of EUR 200 million for the full F3 to finance that. So we were looking at different options, both dilutive and non-dilutive. And clearly, we think that the quality of the result of this trial gives us a lot of optionalities in terms of what are the best strategic -- what is the best strategic option for the company.

Operator operator
#50

The next question comes from the line of [ Jean-Jacques Lefour ].

Unknown Analyst analyst
#51

Once again, congratulations. Two quick ones, if I may. The first is, even if it's not required by the FDA and probably not monetary in your trial, did you have a look to the impact on steatosis of lanifibranor? And the second one is, I know we are early days in -- with these results, but since Novo Nordisk is one of your key shareholders, therefore, is it stupid to think about an agreement with them to develop a combination of lanifibranor and semaglutide given the also good results they got in Phase II?

Pierre Broqua executive
#52

Okay. I think I'll start with this question. So yes, we have -- part of the data package is the effect of lanifibranor on each of the components of the NASH score, so taken independently, so steatosis, inflammation and ballooning. And I don't have the data with me. This will be analyzed. And again, we will certainly report that in the forthcoming meetings to keep everybody informed about the data.

Frederic Cren executive
#53

Yes. And Novo, just a quick precision. So we have a Novo venture, is one of our key shareholders, but they are independent from Novo Pharma -- Novo Nordisk. They belong to the foundation. But to your question, would it make sense to combine semaglutide with lanifibranor. Mechanistically, we have a preclinical study ongoing just to get some ideas on that. Then when I personally look at the data we just generated, we feel we have an activity, [ already fixed ] as a monotherapy, good efficacy, good safety profile, so I don't see obligation of a fixed dose. But that's also kind of personal feeling. And maybe that's a good question maybe for Sven or Manal from a real clinician deep down in the trenches to answer this question.

Sven Francque executive
#54

I think it's a little bit preliminary. We still need to see also the data of the semaglutide trial. But of course, you can't expect that the positive results are the result of a combination of effects of semaglutide. And just from a mode of action, yes, it could be complementary, but I think we need first to analyze clearly what are the results in detail before you can say anything about having that combined. From a pure mechanistic point of view, looking at the mode of actions, you have 2 drugs that tackle different mechanisms. And especially for lanifibranor, you tackle end metabolic and inflammatory and fibrogenic pathways. Semaglutide probably tackles mainly the metabolic drivers of the disease so they can be complementary. But to my feeling, we need more details before we can go on with such a combination.

Manal Abdelmalek executive
#55

I'm in full agreement. Mechanistically, the combination is reasonable and very rational. Keeping in mind that for many patients with advanced hepatic fibrosis, even F2 or 3 therapy could potentially be longer term. And compliance and patient acceptability of combination therapies, and [ modes of ] administration and ease of use will be variables that will require further attention and evaluation in future studies.

Operator operator
#56

Your next question comes from the line of Michael Morabito.

Michael Morabito analyst
#57

So I had a follow-up question on the comparisons to pioglitazone. And how do you see lanifibranor working from a commercial standpoint, given the similarities and differences between how the drugs work and the profile that we see here. And a second question on the placebo rates. As Ed had mentioned, I want to follow-up on that and ask. Because you were the first trial looking at the SAF score, do you think that, that changed how the pathologists could have been viewing the samples and that could have potentially led to you having a higher placebo rate through both the fibrosis and the NASH resolution measures? And do you intend to use the SAF score as an endpoint in the Phase III trial?

Pierre Broqua executive
#58

So I will -- maybe Frederic can leave you by the commercial standpoint, just to compare Pio. I think that the products are very different, actually. So when you compare the results of the Pio 6 months, Pio NASH patients with our trial, we see that lanifibranor is much more efficacious on fibrosis. So we had a really strong early significant effect on fibrosis, which Pio didn't have even after 18 months. It's possible that what kicks in is a combination of delta-gamma because we know that from the preliminary results reported by seladelpar, there is an effect of seladelpar at the high dose on improvement of fibrosis and -- without worsening of NASH. So I think the delta-gamma component of lanifibranor can make a difference, not only maybe on this antifibrotic activity but also on the mitigation of the body weight gain. Because as I told you already, the 6-month trial with Pio was performed in patients with hypocaloric diet and they had the same weight gain that we have with lanifibranor. So I think it's really a different molecule. How does that impact in term commercially maybe Frederic can elaborate on that. But then, I will say to you -- to your second point about the SAF -- actually, the SAF. Actually, the central reader of our study is Pierre Bedossa, and Pierre Bedossa actually is the one with all the pathologies that developed the SAF score. So I don't think there is -- I think he is absolutely trained well, not only on the NASH score, of course, because he's also analyzing most of the Phase III that are currently running, but he's also a highly trained on the SAF score. So I don't think there is any bias relatively to the placebo effect in this score.

Frederic Cren executive
#59

And just to finalize on the question. I think the SAF score, the way we use this in the trial has clearly been very helpful in order to select and to screen the population that turned out. We have a severe form of fibrosis and NASH, so that was very helpful. And then for the Phase III, we need to sit down with the FDA. But clearly, the FDA, the primary endpoint are NASH resolution and fibrosis improvement, and we will use all the endpoint and not the SAF score, of course. Then commercially, I think it's really important. Lanifibranor is not Pio. It's a different drug. It's a pan-PPAR. It activates the 3 isoform in a moderate and balanced way. We have efficacy data, which I think speak to themselves, but clearly, also entail that we -- that we have some efficacy coming from the delta and the alpha. If we also look at the tox study, no urinary bladder cancer, which was one of the potential liabilities of Pio. We didn't see that. So to just conclude, lanifibranor is a different form of Pio is not correct. It's a very different molecule. And I think this will be reflected in the commercial point of view. Clearly, when we look at the profile of the drug hitting both endpoints in 6 months, improving insulin parameters, good metabolic profile, low pruritus, et cetera, clearly gives to the molecule a commercial potential and commercial profile that is really appealing, I think, to payers and especially to patients and clinicians.

Manal Abdelmalek executive
#60

From the clinical standpoint and patient care, I do agree with the comments that have been said. We cannot consider pioglitazone to be an equivalent of a pan-PPAR. The pivot study, which was conducted by the NASH CRN and published in the New England Journal in 2010 clearly demonstrated that while pioglitazone can improve NASH, it had no effect on fibrosis at 96 weeks. So the addition of the alpha and delta components of the pan-PPAR do not equate this molecule to that of pioglitazone. And thus, we cannot head-to-head make any comparisons even about side effects or efficacy or long-term issues as we otherwise observed with pioglitazone because they are different molecules.

Michael Morabito analyst
#61

Okay. And just one final question. As far as the consideration for a longer-term trial for Phase III. Are there any ongoing long-term toxicity studies that need to be completed before a longer trial could be initiated?

Pierre Broqua executive
#62

So we have actually completed the nonclinical pharmacology study. We reported the 2-year carcinogenicity study result maybe a year ago, a little bit more, so that led to FDA lifting the clinical hold on the populated drug for lanifibranor. So now there is no showstoppers to go ahead for longer clinical trials than the 6 months.

Operator operator
#63

Your next question comes from the line of Lenny Van Steenhuyse.

Lenny Van Steenhuyse analyst
#64

Just quickly with one follow-up. I was quickly looking at the liver enzymes, where we see that the high and low doses of lani have a similar effect on ALT, while actually the lower dose performs better on AST and GGT. I was wondering if there's any indication on what may be driving this and where that difference in dosing and effect is coming from.

Pierre Broqua executive
#65

So you're right. This is also an observation we have made, and we need to look into the individual data to understand what is this -- dose relationships, how is it explained. So today, I don't have an explanation. Like I say, is that all liver enzymes are down to control levels quite quickly, but then, we need to understand what is the difference between the 800- and 1,200-milligram dose on an individual basis.

Operator operator
#66

Your next question comes from the line of [ Vincent Gilbert ].

Unknown Analyst analyst
#67

I just wondered about the potential Phase III and the dosing regimen, whether there might be a case to think about the potential dose titration in the Phase III trial. And then the second one on the weight gain. Wondering whether you've observed any difference in weight gain between the diabetes population and the whole population.

Pierre Broqua executive
#68

So titration, yes, to be honest we -- today, we don't think about titration. I think you would go for titration to mitigate safety aspects, which, from the results we have today, we don't think we need to titrate. But again, this is something that we -- again, the design of studies is currently being discussed internally with the team and with our advisers and KOL. So again, we will come back to you once we have defined exactly the design of the Phase III. And to your question about weight gain, sorry, can you repeat?

Unknown Analyst analyst
#69

If there was a difference between type 2 diabetes or...

Pierre Broqua executive
#70

I don't have the data. So I'm not sure about the data, I cannot answer that.

Operator operator
#71

Your next question comes from the line of [ Bertrand Delfin ].

Unknown Analyst analyst
#72

Congratulations for the data. Actually, my main question was just asked. So it was about the weight gain. If you just have an idea of how it is distributed. Is it potentially driven by outliers? Or is it, let's say, more [indiscernible] or more evenly distributed? If you have just an idea of that. And perhaps also about the drop in number of patients between ITT and per protocol. One part is explained by only the completers. And the second part, I noticed 12 patients in placebo, 14 patients for lanifibranor 800 and 8 patient less for lanifibranor 1,200. Could you just provide what were the main causes of this dropout? You provided a few examples, but if you have an idea, in overall. And perhaps a last question about the Phase III potential dosing regimen or potential doses, simply. Would you potentially foresee the use of a dose that has not been investigated yet, i.e., in between 800 and between 1,200, example, given 1,000.

Pierre Broqua executive
#73

Okay. So to your question about the distribution of patients within weight, so this is being analyzed. I know that there are patients not gaining weight, and probably there are responders that are not gaining weight, but we need to look at that. We have not done the full analysis yet. Regarding the drop out, I think you will find all of them in the -- on the table -- on the FDA table that we have provided in the press release and in the presentation. And for Phase III, yes, again, this is based on -- it's a work in progress, and we don't have the final design yet. Also, we are making progress, of course, but we need to really analyze data out of the NATIVE trial to be able to design the most appropriate Phase III study.

Operator operator
#74

That was your final audio question, sir. I hand back to you.

Frederic Cren executive
#75

Very good. We do not have any questions from the chat room, so I think we're done with the question and we're actually done with the webcast. So once again, thank you for participating. As Pierre said, a warm thank you to all of the people, clinician advisers, Sven, Manal and our clinical board that have helped us achieve these very important results. We are now getting back, and the team is already at work to prepare for the Phase III. And of course, with high level of energy, and then to the others, given the results that we just published. So thank you very much, and we look forward to meet you in person when this [ trench ] period is over to discuss these results furthermore. Thank you very much. Bye.

Pierre Broqua executive
#76

Thank you. Bye-bye.

Operator operator
#77

Ladies and gentlemen, that does conclude your call for today. Thank you all for participating, and you may now disconnect. Speakers, please stand by.

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