Lendlease Group (LLC) Earnings Call Transcript

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by, and welcome to the Lendlease Sustainability Market Briefing. [Operator Instructions] I must advise you that this call is being recorded today, Wednesday 4, November 2020. I would now like to hand the call over to Mr. Justin McCarthy. Please go ahead.

Thank you, and good morning, everyone, and welcome to today's sustainability market briefing. My name is Justin McCarthy, Head of Investor Relations for Lendlease. Today's presentation builds upon the sustainability briefing we hold around this time last year and provides more detail on our newly released sustainability targets, both environmental and social. We have several presenters for you today. So I'll now hand over to the first of those, Cate Harris, Head of Sustainability and Lendlease Foundation.

Thanks, Justin, and good morning, everyone. Today, sitting at Barangaroo, I am on the land of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. I would like to acknowledge and pay my respect to their elders, both past and present. I would also like to acknowledge all First Nations' peoples from across Australia. As a business that works across many locations, we have a responsibility to listen, learn and walk alongside First Nations' people to ensure our activities support the ongoing continuation of connection to their land, waters, culture, traditions and languages. Turning to Slide 4. I'll start today by reiterating Lendlease's purpose which our CEO, Steve McCann, unveiled in August. My team and I are really excited about our purpose statement given it embodies our sustainability commitments. It acknowledges our rich history and leadership in sustainable placemaking that encompasses the value we create in partnership with others. Stakeholders, including governments, investors, customers and the communities within which we operate are increasingly looking for organizations to demonstrate how they are contributing to society beyond a pure profit motive. Our purpose statement articulates for our employees and stakeholders why we do what we do. By creating places where communities thrive, we generate social, environmental and economic value. Slide 5 encapsulates Lendlease's refreshed strategy through the focus on 5 strategic priorities that best leverage our competitive advantage. One of those is leadership and sustainability. We are proud of our historical leadership position and will strive to maintain that going forward. Moving to Slide 6. Last year, we launched our refreshed sustainability framework to help guide and focus our decision-making in the full knowledge the world will be a very different place in a decade from now. Our founder, Dick Dusseldorp, was an early pioneer of corporate responsibility, with the vision that was guided by 2 simple principles, doing the right thing and leaving a legacy for future generations. Climate change and society's response to it are now recognized as foundational drivers of risk and opportunity within the global economy. In 2018, Lendlease committed to incorporating the TCFD framework into our disclosure regime. As a result, we're now much better equipped to provide our investors and stakeholders insights on how we're building resilience to climate-related risks and opportunities into our business. With our future climate scenarios created, we worked with our global leadership team to imagine what our industry would look like in 2050 and the implications for ourselves, our competitors, clients and supply chain. Once these futures were envisaged, we engaged the global business through risk and opportunity workshops where we used 3 of our 4 climate-related scenarios to test the resiliency of our business against: polarization, a world warmed by 3 to 4 degrees; our Paris alignment scenario, a world warmed by 2 to 3 degrees; and our transformation scenario, a world kept well below 2 degrees. The outcomes were synthesized into 10 climate-related impacts for each scenario. Importantly, they were used to inform our TCFD strategies and our new sustainability targets. We have included summaries of the impacts in the appendix to today's presentation and they were also published in our FY '20 annual report. In sharing our experiences and the outcomes of these scenarios in planning for climate impacts, we hope others will be encouraged to commit to this important evaluation and disclosure. Which brings me to Slide 7, our bold new sustainability targets, which were recently announced in our FY '20 integrated annual report. They are intentionally ambitious. The environmental target sets a global benchmark for our sector. We are making a conscious decision to be a leader in driving industry transformation to limit global warming and to create lasting social value. This is not only the right thing to do, but also will continue to provide a strong competitive advantage, given the rapid increase in institutional and client demand for sustainable assets. Taking a closer look at the environmental target, we have committed to be a 1.5-degree aligned company. For Lendlease, this translates into a commitment to be net 0 carbon emissions by 2025 and for scopes 1 and 2 emissions and to be absolute 0 by 2040, meaning 0 carbon emissions across Lendlease product, including the supply chain, by 2040. The term 1.5 degrees aligned is a commitment to take actions to reduce our emissions to the levels required to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees. Due to the amount of greenhouse gases already emitted, the planet is set to warm by at least 1.5 degrees from pre-industrial levels. It has already warmed 1 degree. The timing of our targets is informed by guidelines from the Science Based Targets Initiative. SBTI provide information for organizations to assess the level of global warming that their carbon targets align with. To achieve no more than 1.5 degrees warming, guidelines specific to our sector show a need for rapid decarbonization. The carbon targets we have committed to are the boldest carbon targets we are aware of in our sector globally. Later, Simon Wild will look at the steps we will be taking to get there. In addition to our environment target, we are also committed to the creation of $250 million of measured social value by 2025. our social target is focused on the value created by our social initiatives beyond project commitments. Our projects have numerous social initiatives, often focused on job creation, skilling and community development, all with significant value to communities and individuals. While often initiated by us, many of these are also linked to contractual requirements. In this target, we are challenging ourselves to create social value beyond the great work of our projects. We are particularly keen to focus on the value we are creating rather than the amount of money invested or donated. We want to be sure that money we are investing is of value to the communities we are supporting. It is one thing to gift money, it is another much harder thing entirely to determine the value of that giving. This social value is what the target is focused on. We have many shared value partnerships around the world with not-for-profit organizations based on mutual gain associated with social value outcomes that we are aligned in. The value created through these partnerships and programs is what we will be assessing. Edmund McCombs will address this in more detail. But I will now hand over to Simon Wild, who will talk to our carbon targets in more detail.

Thanks, Cate, and good morning, everyone. My name is Simon Wild, and I'm Head of Sustainability Transformation for Lendlease. I lead the TCFD and decarbonization work across our global operations. Turning to Slide 9. As a 1.5-degree aligned company, we aim to tackle the climate crisis head on while delivering client and shareholder value, maintaining our employee value proposition and honoring our sustainability legacy. Achieving 0 emissions will be achieved -- will be approached by short-, medium- and long-term goals, addressing our immediate emissions activity and fostering industry participation and partnerships to help respond to wider indirect emissions. Our 1.5-degree alignment is underpinned by 2 carbon targets: net 0 carbon by 2025 and absolute 0 carbon by 2040. To be net 0 scope 1 and 2 will require us to eliminate emissions as much as possible. The fuels we burn, such as diesel and gas, that is scope one; the power we consume, that is scope 2; and all remaining emissions will then be required to be offset. For our net 0 2025 target, our boundaries of scope 1 and scope 2 emissions cover the fuels and electricity we use on our development and construction sites, the assets we operate as well as the tenancies we occupy. Our absolute 0 2040 target covers scope 1, 2 and 3 emissions. For scope 3, we include what is called the upstream emissions, emissions generated in the extraction, manufacture, transportation of the materials and products we use across our business. Our upstream emissions are the highest in the construction of buildings called embodied energy. In addition to the upstream scope 3 emissions, we also include what we referred to as downstream emissions. For us, they are the fuel and electricity used by our tenants and residents in the assets we operate. To be absolute 0 by 2040 will require us to eliminate all our emissions, scope 1, 2 and 3, without the backup of offsets. Turning to Slide 10. We have established 5 key steps to achieving our carbon targets. The first step has been to establish a cross-business leader group to create a decarbonization investment strategy for both our net 0 and absolute 0 targets. The strategy will be guided by our targets, our business strategy and our development pipeline. The second step will focus on phasing out diesel and gas in our operations. This step will focus both on fuel switching and electrification in our assets, construction sites and developments. The time line of the phaseout will be determined by the end of life of equipment in our assets, the availability and development of zero-emission technology as well as government investment and regulation of zero-emission fuels such as hydrogen. The third step will see Lendlease transition to 100% renewable electricity by 2030. This will be achieved through a combination of on-site renewable technologies, such as the 800 kilowatts of solar panels at Barangaroo where we are today and also through the purchase of renewable electricity and renewable energy certificates. The fourth step will be the most challenging and industry-defining step, setting pathways to absolute 0 for our upstream scope 3 emissions in the places we create. We recognize that we can't achieve this step alone. It will involve collaboration with our supply chain partners to drive transformational innovation. Innovation in zero-emission material technology is already happening. Alternative construction materials such as cross-laminated timber or CLT solutions that minimize the use of carbon-intensive materials, such as cement and steel, are continuing to be used across the world. Here in Australia, we have some great examples of the successful use of CLT, such as International House and Daramu House at Barangaroo. Alternative manufacturing processes are also emerging, such as fuel switching from fossil fuels to zero-emission hydrogen for manufacturing processes associated with products like steel and aluminum, creating zero-emission metals. Cement presents more of a challenge for zero-emission construction. Cement replacements are currently commonplace and significantly reduce the embodied emissions in buildings, but will struggle to be absolute 0. Emerging novel cements do exist and will require investment to provide commercial scale near-zero-emission solutions. To adopt these, new emerging cements will require innovation in design and delivery, moving more of the industry towards prefabrication and design for manufacturing and assembly. New ways of thinking for the design and delivery of buildings will be needed to achieve absolute 0, and importantly, new ways of thinking in how buildings and products are procured. Digitally enabled supply chains will enable greater transparency of emissions in materials, sustainable finance will drive investment across buildings and new ownership models will drive circular economy outcomes. New ownership models exist today. For example, our Paya Lebar Quarter development in Singapore, we adopted a leasing model for our chillers, choosing to adopt an air conditioning as a service solution rather than purchasing the chillers. These new leasing models create greater stewardship of key products in buildings as well as driving long-term environmental performance. Here, the operators of the air conditioning as a service solution are incentivized to achieve higher energy performance and disincentivized for underperformance. Our final and fifth step focuses on collaboration and partnerships with our tenants and residents to transition to renewable energy and achieve absolute 0 emissions by 2040. Our carbon targets are intentionally bold. We believe they are necessary, will drive innovation across our value chain and continue to deliver our strong track record in sustainability leadership. I will now hand over to Edmund McCombs.

Thank you, Simon, and good morning, everyone. My name is Edmund McCombs, and I'm the Head of External Partnerships at Lendlease, and I've been with the company for 11 years. Social sustainability has always been a priority for Lendlease, whether it be through the development of skilling and training centers, creating spaces that foster a sense of connection or proactively promoting and supporting positive health and well-being outcomes. Lendlease is on an exciting journey to leverage our shared value partnerships to achieve great outcomes and thereby create $250 million of social value by 2025. These are partnerships where all parties involved benefit. In contrast to philanthropy, where there is funding exchanged without further interaction, shared value means proactively working together to produce positive outcomes for all parties. Social value refers to the impact our social initiatives have on people and society. That is the difference we make to community. Social value considers the environment, social and economic impacts of our actions on society and is converted into a financial metric. We will measure our shared value partnerships globally using methodologies such as social return on investment or social impact statements. In addition, we are working with organizations such as the Australian Social Value Bank, the largest bank of consistent and robust social values ever produced in Australia. The Australian Social Value Bank assigns an economic value or financial proxy to improvements in well-being, allowing a proportionate way to measure and calculate social impact. To begin our social valuation journey, we have outlined key metrics across skilling and training, employment, volunteering, mental health, support of social and minority-owned and run enterprises and addressing homelessness. Conversion into financial proxies for common initiatives is aimed at capturing a large proportion of the social value created. Turning to Slide 13. One of our exciting shared valued partnerships is with the Great Barrier Reef Foundation. In 2018, Lendlease established a 10-year partnership with the Great Barrier Reef Foundation to support a range of programs to protect critical habitats in the reef over 10 years. Lendlease and the Great Barrier Reef Foundation have had genuine opportunities to engage with one another and produce some great outcomes and learnings for both organizations. These outcomes include Springboard, Lendlease's global personal development program based in Yeppoon, Queensland alongside the Great Barrier Reef. This program's key focus on sustainability involves Great Barrier Reef Foundation reef scientists and Lendlease employees, alongside traditional owners playing a key role in supporting and preserving the reef and enhancing community inclusion and economic prosperity. Our people have also been able to support the Great Barrier Reef Foundation through a Global Reef innovation challenge, addressing 2 issues: advocacy for the reef in local communities and a spawn program to relocate coral spawn to places of the reef that need it most. We had really great outcomes in addressing both of these issues. Further shared value was established in 2020 when Lendlease managed retail centers, donated digital screen space to allow the Great Barrier Reef Foundation to promote their Impact campaign, highlighting the plight of the reef and how we can all help. There are also a range of other initiatives this partnership is undertaking. I won't go into detail on those here, but needless to say, this partnership is a great example of bringing together our ambitious 1.5-degree aligned target to tackle climate change with our social value target to help protect one of the world's greatest natural wonders that is currently facing the devastating impacts of a warming world. Turning to Slide 14. Beyond our shared value partnerships, our commitment to community remains a focal point for our projects globally. Working with the local community and partners to produce meaningful interactions that create a sense of community and leave a legacy is key to fulfilling our purpose as an organization. I will touch on a few examples, as outlined on this slide. At our TRX project in Kuala Lumpur, our team engaged the local community as a part of Lendlease's Annual Community Day. After recognizing their needs, we put together a program whereby our employees volunteered to refurbish sporting facilities, host art and craft workshops and create a sense of community in an area where statistically 1 out of every 3 children have never played with a toy or connected socially with kids in their own neighborhood. On Elephant Park in London, a partnership was formed with an organization called Collectively that saw the Loneliness Lab come to fruition. This partnership aims to bring together business, government and civil society to explore how we can reshape and reimagine our cities to design out loneliness and isolation, to get to know our neighbors and to feel a part of a community. The Bright Business Programme was introduced at Darling Square in Sydney, focusing on creating a thriving community by helping residents make their business ideas come to life. The Bright team, local business and creative leaders brainstormed, co-created and in many cases, launched their own businesses. In the U.S., Lendlease supports a suicide prevention program called Living Works that runs across many of our U.S. project sites. A program was developed alongside Living Works that is specifically focused on mental health and suicide prevention in the construction industry. Living Works is one of many mental health support and wellness programs that are offered to Lendlease employees globally. Now these are just a few examples of business-as-usual programs that continuously evolve and grow Lendlease's connection to community. To learn more about Lendlease's continued connection and supportive community and beyond, I'd like to introduce Cath Brokenborough.

Hi, everyone. I'm Cath Brokenborough, and I'm a proud Wiradjuri woman from Central West New South Wales and the executive lead for First Nations Engagement and Reconciliation at Lendlease. I am participating today from the beautiful country of the Quandamooka people in the Southern Moreton Bay area of Southeast Queensland, and I acknowledge their long cultural connections to this place and their native title ownership rights to this land. I thank them for welcoming me to this year and to work on their country, and I also want to pay my respects to their elders past and present. I also acknowledge and pay my respects to any other First Nations' people who are participating on this call. The image on Slide 15 is a recently completed art installation at our Darling Square project in Sydney. Inspired by night sky, the canopy captures First Nations' stories to engage people and connect them to place. The area was traditionally cared for by the Wangal and Gadigal clans. With First Nations' design thinking, we have created a beautiful space for people to gather or pass through, whilst celebrating and sharing local First Nations' culture. The artist, Jacob Nash, is a well-known Australian Creative and Head of Design at Bangarra Dance Theater Australia, who are an important RAP, or Reconciliation Action Plan, partner of ours. Turning to Slide 16. This slide highlights our RAP journey and recent progress. Reconciliation Australia was established 20 years ago to inspire and enable all Australians to contribute to the reconciliation of the nation. In Australia, our commitment to reconciliation is demonstrated and guided by our RAP, a strategic framework to realize our vision for reconciliation which has been certified by Reconciliation Australia. RAP actions promote and facilitate reconciliation by building relationships, respect and trust between the wider Australian community and First Nations' people. Our second and current RAP operates at Reconciliation Australia's highest levels and elevate that, which recognizes companies with a proven track record and that want to lead in this space. The vision for our current RAP is one that encourages all employees to acknowledge and celebrate the proud heritage of Australia's first peoples. It also promotes opportunities for career development, sustainable business growth and economic participation of aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australia. Highlighted on the slide are some of our FY '20 achievements. To call out one, have a look at procurement. We've made significant progress in procurement. First Nations' business is a growing part of our supply chain. We are also pleased that there has been increasing government policy and client and stakeholder expectations that companies support and deliver on procurement targets. To achieve our RAP commitments, we have reviewed and changed some of our systems and processes to reduce barriers to First Nations' businesses. We've built a comprehensive database to monitor and report our performance and developed a program to assist businesses to strengthen and grow. We're participating in Supply Nation Leadership Roundtable and have worked with Business Council Australia on the development and launching of a new program, Raising the Bar, to continue to grow First Nations' businesses economic participation. While we continue to deliver on the RAP plan and its goals, we are working with Reconciliation Australia to review and measure our progress and develop our next ELEVATE RAP. Moving to Slide 17. Our new ELEVATE RAP, titled country truth and our shared story, will build upon the learning and the feedback we've received from our RAP partners and First Nations' leaders and businesses in recent years. We plan to launch this new RAP very shortly, definitely before the end of the calendar year. The vision to the new RAP is that Australia's First Nations truth and our country shared story connects us to place. Our leadership objective is to lift the industry standard in placemaking led by the self-determination principles and voices of First Nations people. In this context, we don't only see the concept of placemaking as just being about the physical built environment, but rather what can be achieved by incorporating First Nations' people's aspirations of self-determination throughout all stages of the development project. This includes employment and procurement opportunities during construction, supporting traditional owners community-based initiatives beyond boundaries of the development and the cultural learning, social and economic opportunities that can be made possible through the ongoing public access, use and activation of that place. We see placemaking as a vehicle for promoting and preserving First Nation people's, languages, cultures and their cultural intellectual property rights. We see telling the truth of place is essential to story telling and creating ways of increasing public awareness to strengthen race relations and facilitate the national reconciliation conversation. These actions underpin our drive to create thriving communities and contribute to building a shared national identity that recognizes and embraces Australia's First Nations' heritage. Our success has been based squarely on maintaining long-term, deep and trusting relationships with traditional owner groups, our RAP partners and the First Nations' businesses and organizations we engage with. We have a partnership framework and a number of agreements with traditional owners and First Nations' people, representative organizations, whereby we've committed to a shared vision and values, agreed protocols and specific objectives for working together, which support self-determination to the First Nations' partners and also build organization and cultural capacity in 2-way learning opportunities for all of us. These arrangements go well beyond the transactional free prior and informed consent of legislative or regulatory requirements. Looking at the image in the lower middle panel of Buriburi on the jump form of the Prince of Wales Hospital redevelopment in Sydney is a beautiful illustration of the partnership between Lendlease building team and the La Perouse aboriginal community. Buriburi the whale is the spirit ancestor for aboriginal people belonging to coastal Sydney and the Illawarra areas. This artwork was created by La Perouse artist, Jordan Ardler. Providing permission to use the Buriburi totem in this site is highly significant. The community has never permitted an image of this important spirit ancestor on a building site. And the New South Wales government and Lendlease have never broadcast such a clear and prominent message to workers and visitors that this major construction project is on aboriginal land and is a culturally safe place. It would not have been possible without the team's work over several years to develop a trusted and collaborative partnership with the La Perouse community. The main picture is at Shoreline, a new master-planned community in the Redland Bay Area, South of Brisbane. It will be the first development to apply our new placemaking strategy from the earliest stages of development. It is on the traditional country of both the Quandamooka and Danggan Balun or Five Rivers people, who are already guiding the design, layout and sensory experience of living, working and visiting Shoreline. With partnership agreements signed up by these traditional owners, we've begun to create the shared visions, the values and objectives for this new community. Shoreline will be a place where residents and visitors can come to connect with and share the history, cultures and languages of the First Nations' people of Redland Bay. I'll now hand over to Micah Schulz.

Thanks, Cath, and good morning, all. My name is Micah Schulz, and I'm the Fund Manager of Lendlease's Australian Prime Property Commercial fund, or APPF Commercial, and I've been with Lendlease for 4 years. APPF Commercial comprises a portfolio of 19 prime commercial properties across Australia valued at $5 billion. The fund, established in 1994, has always sought to deliver environmental and social value alongside attractive long-term risk-adjusted returns, a feature that is actively endorsed by our investors. And in doing so, we've been able to demonstrate market leadership. In 2007, we launched our responsible property investment policy, and we were the first real estate signatory to the UN Principles for Responsible Investment. The fund is recognized as the world's most sustainable property fund, being ranked #1 globally in the Global Real Estate Sustainability Benchmark, a ranking it has achieved 5 out of the last 6 years. We have established minimum requirements for acquisitions and new developments to achieve a 6 Star Green Star design and As Built rating. This has seen the fund achieve a high coverage of Green Star Ratings in Australia including the first and only 6 Star Green Star performance rated portfolio. Looking forward, we are aligned with the group's carbon targets, having committed to be net 0 carbon in operation for scope 1 and scope 2 emissions by 2025. Turning to Slide 20. We believe the outcomes achieved by the fund to demonstrate the way in which Lendlease, as an organization, integrates both environmental and social sustainability through its operations. Since our baseline in 2008, we have reduced our intensity across greenhouse gas emissions by 56%, energy by 49% and water by 43%. An authentic approach to positive social impact resonates with our customers, investors and employees, who we increasingly see seeking to actively align themselves with services, products and places to make a positive contribution to the world and to their sense of purpose and well-being. We have incorporated this into the fund strategy. Worklife is a foundational concept in our strategy that recognizes the increasing tension and blurring between work and personal life and a growing appetite for well-being and balance. We have also embraced this concept by branding our online customer portal Worklife. This Worklife portal has been a key tool to support the delivery of some of the funds' well-being and social initiatives. Our social sustainability achievements include $1.2 million of spend across more than 600 social programs, including specific Supply Nation suppliers as well as social enterprise procurement strategies; capital works programs to introduce or refresh occupant health and well-being amenities, such as end-of-trip facilities and increasing biophilia and amenity to lobbies and common areas. A range of programmatic strategies delivered to customers through the Worklife portal, including exercise classes and health programs. And in 2020, APPF Commercial became the world's first office portfolio to be assessed using the WELL portfolio rating, providing a research-driven measurement and benchmarking tool for enhancing human health and buildings and their operation. Moving forward, we are monitoring direct and indirect employment as well as aligning social value partnerships and supply chain procurement opportunities to deliver increased social impact. I will now hand back to Justin.

Thanks, Micah. So that concludes the formal part of today's presentation. Hopefully, it's given you some good insights to our sustainability journey and how we intend to maintain a leadership position. We have covered quite a bit of territory, so hopefully, it's elicited quite a few questions from you. So with that, we might open the lines to take your questions.

[Operator Instructions] Your first question comes from Sameer Chopra with BofA Securities.

Look, thank you for this today, very much appreciated. My question was mainly around green premium. Are you finding that people who want to either buy apartments or take up space in offices, are they willing to pay a premium to be associated with the sustainability that goes with the company? How does it help with your marketing and pricing? Just wondering if you can paint us a demand picture, that would be useful.

It's Micah here. Thanks for that question. I can certainly respond to that from the perspective of commercial office and tenants. It's multifaceted and inexact, so you can't put a precise number on any green premium. But I think we can clearly see that, that value is increasingly building and being recognized across multiple areas in our assets and one of those certainly is demand from tenants. Individual tenants have different criteria and value green buildings in different ways, but we are increasingly recognizing tenants are screening for buildings that offer a minimum level of NABERS rating, for instance, and other sort of aspects of sustainability. And they're increasingly recognizing that, that is valued by their own staff. I mean we're seeing a clear trend here where customers and that sort of end workers in our assets, they want to align themselves with products and brands that they feel sort of match with their values and they want to feel like they're part of something that's positive. And so we expect that to continue to grow over time. And it certainly is also something that's increasingly recognized in asset values as well, we believe, again, not explicitly, but you certainly see it being a factor that we look at when we look at assets, and we believe other owners also look at. And it goes into the mix in terms of how you think about the quality of the building, its appeal to tenants and how its sort of future readiness sits for the way things are sort of shifting into the future.

Can I ask a follow-up sort of question, and this is looking more at properties which are sitting within existing funds or assets that are sitting in your funds under management. Do you see significant sort of redevelopment opportunities there just to improve their NABERS rating on assets that are already being managed by the firm? Is there a sort of a CapEx opportunity as these assets need to be redeveloped?

Yes. So those opportunities certainly exist in the market. I must say for our portfolio, we probably captured a lot of the low-hanging fruit some time ago, and that's why we've seen such significant improvements against our 2008 baseline. But we are continuing to push ourselves to find ways to identify opportunities to improve our performance, and that obviously flows through to environmental impact and operational performance as well. So that's sort of speaking for our portfolio. But I have no doubt that there are assets out there in the market that do still have some of that low-hanging fruit where there are significant gains and significant -- and very attractive sort of payback propositions to be captured.

And just one final question. This one is probably for Justin. Justin, just in terms of the investor base, are you seeing any big changes in sort of ESG-related questions and ESG interest in 2020 versus what you've been seeing in say 2018, '19?