PageGroup plc (PAGE) Earnings Call Transcript
January 15, 2024
Earnings Call Speaker Segments
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the PageGroup fourth quarter trading update. My name is Bruno, and I'll be operating your call today. [Operator Instructions]. I will now hand over to your host, Kelvin Stagg, Chief Financial Officer. Please go ahead.
Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the PageGroup 2023 Fourth Quarter and Full Year Trading Update. I'm Kelvin Stagg, Chief Financial Officer. And on the call with me is Nick Kirk, Chief Executive Officer. Although I will not read it through, I'd just like to make reference to the legal formalities that are covered in the cautionary statement in the appendix of this presentation and which will be also available on our website following the call. The group delivered gross profit of GBP 237.3 million in the quarter, a decline of 8.9% in constant currencies against Q4 2022. Gross profit for the full year was just over GBP 1 billion. In line with the continued challenging trading conditions in Q4, our fee earner head count reduced by 224 or 3.7% in the quarter, with reductions in all regions. Our fee earner headcount ended the quarter at 5,851 which is 1,092 or 15.7% lower than at the end of Q4 2022. Due primarily to this reduction in fee earners, gross profit per fee earner and measure of productivity increased 8% compared to Q4 2022. We have a strong balance sheet with net cash at the end of December of around GBP 90 million. This was down from GBP 136 million at the end of Q3 having paid out GBP 66.2 million in interim and special dividends on the 13th of October. Given the slowdown in trading towards the end of Q4, we now expect 2023 full year operating profit to be slightly below previous guidance of GBP 120 million to GBP 125 million. We'll now give a brief financial review. Overall, growth was stronger [in] temporary than permanent recruitment, which is indicative of the current uncertainty in the market with clients seeking more flexible options. Temporary recruitment grew 5.2% against Q4 2022 with permanent down 13.9%. Reflecting this, our ratio of permanent to temporary gross profit was 70:30, down from 72:28 last quarter and down from 74:26 in Q4 2022. In Michael Page, permanent recruitment represented 80% of gross profit, while in Page Personnel, it was less at 45%. Growth was stronger in temporary recruitments in both Michael Page and Page Personnel. In Q4, we decreased our fee earner headcount through natural attrition by 224 or 3.7%, with reductions in all regions. This follows the fee earner reduction of 310 or 4.8% in Q3. This was the fifth successive quarter of fee earner headcount reduction from the peak of over 7,000 fee earners at the end of Q3 2022 to 5,851 at the end of Q4, a reduction of 1,220 or 17%. Our non-fee earner headcount also decreased by 57 in the quarter or 2.7%. Our total headcount is now 1,161 or 12.9% lower than Q4 2022. Driven by the action on fee earner headcount over the past 12 months, productivity increased by 8% in constant currencies compared to Q4 2022. Despite the year-on-year decline in gross profit, we are still seeing good activity levels, albeit we did see a deterioration in job flow through Q4. However, these activity levels are not all converting unit gross profit due to ongoing lower levels of candidate and client confidence. Candidate shortages remain across the majority of our markets and are supportive of continued high fee rates. Salary levels also remain elevated, albeit salary offers to candidates to reduce compared to Q4 2022. These lower offers, combined with lower candidate confidence and to continued high levels of offers rejected by candidates either through employer buybacks or unwillingness to risk the move for the size of incentive or offer. The increased time to hire that we saw in Q3 also continued. I will now present a brief regional review. The tougher conditions we saw at the end of Q3 continued into Q4. Trading conditions in Asia, the U.K. and the U.S. saw no improvement whilst trading conditions in Europe deteriorated. Overall, group gross profit declined 8.9% in constant currencies against Q4 2022. Foreign exchange had a negative impact on the quarter's growth rate compared to the prior year, decreasing the reported gross profit growth rate by 2.2 percentage points or GBP 5.7 million. In our largest region, Europe, Middle East and Africa, which represented 56% of the group, we declined by 6.1% in Q4 2022. Michael Page, which is focused on higher income permanent recruitment was down 4% for the quarter while Page Personnel, which is focused on lower level of agreement, was down 9%. France, the group's largest market, which represented 15% of the group, declined 5% with continued weakness in candidate and client confidence particularly within Michael Page. Reflecting the uncertainty in the market, temporary recruitment was more resilient than permanent. Germany, the group's second largest market, representing 13% of the group, declined 6% with tougher conditions, particularly within permanent recruitment in Michael Page. Our technology-focused interim business was more resilient and continued to deliver the standout result up 7%. Elsewhere in the region, the tougher conditions we experienced in Q3 continued into Q4 with the majority of countries declining year-on-year. In line with the tougher trading conditions, we reduced our fee earner headcount by 84 in Q4, which was broadly in line with the reductions in the previous 2 quarters. The Americas, which represented 17% of the group declined by 8%. North America was down 24%, with the U.S. also declining 24%, broadly in line with the decline of 25% in Q3. Conditions remain challenging with uncertainty affecting both candidate and client confidence. Conditions were particularly tough within accounting and financial services, while property and construction was more resilient. In Latin America, excluding Argentina, as the [higher inflation] following the recent election is distorted the growth rate. Gross profit grew 11% despite political and macroeconomic uncertainty across the region. Mexico, our largest country in the region, was down 6%, broadly in line with Q3, whereas Brazil was up 20%. The remaining countries grew 22% collectively. Across the region, fee earner headcount decreased by 35, the majority of which was in Latin America as we held on to our more experienced fee earners in the U.S. In Asia Pacific, which represented 15% of the group, Q4 gross profit declined 10.3% on 2022. Permanent recruitment across the region declined 11%, while temporary declined 7%. In Asia, 12% of the group, we declined 6%. In Greater China, 4% of the group, we declined 8%, with Mainland China flat. Hong Kong declined 12% for the quarter. Our trading in Greater China is now stabilized. There is a little sign of improvement. The increase in the growth rate compared to Q3 due to the softer comparators. Southeast Asia declined 14%, broadly in line with Q3, with Singapore, which continues to be impacted by uncertainty related to China, down 14%. India delivered a standout performance, up 16%. However, Japan declined 7% compared to growth of 4% in Q3. Australia declined 24% with high levels candidate and client uncertainty. Our fee earner headcount decreased by 54% in the quarter, mostly in Australia and Japan as we hold on to our experienced fee earner headcount in China. In the U.K., which represented 12% of the group, gross profit declined 19.9% over a decline of 18.9% in Q3. Michael Page was down 23% whilst Page Personnel declined 15%. We continue to see clients deferring hiring decisions and candidates becoming increasingly cautious about accepting offers. Reflecting the challenging trading conditions, our fee earner headcount reduced by 50 or 6.2% in Q4 and is now 20% lower than at the end of Q4 last year. I will now give a brief summary of the results. Group gross profit declined 8.9% in constant currencies against Q4 2022, which was a 10% softer comparator in Q3. Trading conditions in Asia, the U.K. and the U.S. saw no improvement our trading conditions in Europe deteriorated. We experienced the slower end of the quarter at candidate uncertainty was compounded by the proximity to year-end salaries and bonuses, which combined to make trading particularly challenging. Tougher market conditions in Q3 continued into Q4 as low levels of client and candidate confidence continued to delay time to hire, particularly in permanent group. However, against this backdrop, activity levels remain robust, albeit we saw a deterioration in job flow in many of our markets during the quarter. We experienced shortages of many still candidates in most of our markets which continue to support IP rates. In line with these conditions, we reduced our fee earner headcount by 224 with action taken in all regions. This followed similar headcount reductions in the previous 4 quarters. Productivity measured as gross profit per fee earner was up 8% versus Q4 of 2022. And as a result of our action of fee earner head count over the past 12 months. We now expect 2023 full year operating profit to be slightly below previous guidance of GBP 120 million to GBP 125 million. Nick and I will now be happy to take any questions you may have.
[Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from Kean Marden from Jefferies.
I've got a few questions regarding different territories, first of all, if you bear with me. So first of all, on U.S. accounting and finance, which you've called out as being a little softer in the fourth quarter. I'm just wondering if you could put some figures around that. I presume it's sort of weakness in professional services that's possibly driving that, but any narrative would be helpful and just your thoughts about how things might develop in 2024. On China, I think you flagged that there's no signs of improvement coming through. Is that what you've assumed for the budget for '24? Or have you taken a more optimistic view as the year progresses? And then finally, on the countries, just your Japanese business. Any reason why that wouldn't have been a little stronger in the fourth quarter, that labor market and some of your peers have treated pretty well there in the last few quarters, so a slightly negative number, just to add a little bit. And then equipment on balance sheet. [indiscernible] that the working capital is about neutral in the second half? And should that improve over the next few months given the deterioration in your net fee momentum.
Okay. Well, I'll take the territories and then pass over to Kelvin. So U.S., yes, I mean it continues to be difficult, albeit that it's not getting any worse. As we said in the statement, I mean, construction is our biggest business over there, and that was pretty resilient through Q4. But accounting, finance, professional services, financial services, all were tough. And frankly, I could throw in technology as well because a lot of the technology recruitment we do with into those types of organizations, so the FS market and the Big Query professional organization. So all around, it's been kind of a tough year for us in the U.S. That said, over the last few months, we haven't seen any deterioration. And we come into this year, and we've only seen 2 weeks of trading, but it's been a reasonable start to the year in the U.S. We've had quite a lot of activity from a job flow perspective. So early signs, but would be a market that we'd expect to probably recover first. When that is, I don't really know. I mean, I suppose optimistically, you might think it might be in Q2 or it might be in H2. I'm not too sure but certainly, the first couple of weeks of trading have been pretty good in the U.S. Then to China, no, as you say, there's no real improvement. I mean we've made the decision, as we said throughout last year to hang on to our core of leadership. So we have over 1/3 of our people with 6 years or more PageGroup experience in leadership roles so they're the types of people that we will continue to hang on to. Again, it's stabilized. It doesn't seem to be getting any worse. But at this point in time, we can't call any signs of immediate recovery either. And then on Japan, probably, yes, I mean, slightly disappointed on the Q4 result. That said, if we look at it in the round Japan from a GP perspective, had its second best year ever in 2023, following its best year ever in 2022, and it was only slightly down on that 2022 number. So it may be a bit of a dull end to the year, but overall, a good performance. Why? I think we just let our fee earner headcount drift a little bit. We didn't do it on purpose. We just got a few unexpected resignations at a time where we weren't expecting them and we need to get that head count back on board. So no, I remain pretty optimistic about Japan going into this year. We just transferred a new leader from our European business to really escalate our performance and growth in Japan over the years to come. So it is a market that we're optimistic about as we talk to in the strategy.
I'll take the last 1 on cash. I think yes, you're probably about right in terms of having clearly neutral working capital in the second half. Q4 temp was up 5%, perm was down 14%. So they probably offset each other just in terms of temp having a bit more need for working capital, but a more sizable unwind. We closed the year at GBP 90 million of net cash. Actually, last week, we were just over GBP 110 million. And I think that just reflects the timing of Christmas and therefore, collections coming in. So nothing untoward in terms of where we ended.
Right. Come back to China again. Does your budget assume no recovery in China in '24? Or have you taken a slightly different view about how the year phases.
I think as it stands, we're not building in any recovery until we start to see some signs. I mean we're running with a very different cost base than we had 12 months ago. So where we might make it a more -- slightly more profitable business. But from a top line perspective, we don't see any signs of growth. So at this point in time, we haven't built that in.
Our next question comes from Andy Grobler from BNP Paribas.
Just 3 for me, if I may. Firstly, you talked about some deterioration through the quarter. Could you elaborate on that and maybe kind of give us a bit more on the exit rate in December. Secondly, just on headcount, where your expectations sequentially for the first part of 2024 and then lastly, the 1 maybe to answer, but through 2023, there seems to be the kind of normalization of perm markets in particular, after all of the exuberances of 2022. Do you feel that process is now done and we're into a more normal cyclical market? Or is there further to go in that normalization.
Okay. Well, I'll have a crack at the first 2 and then I'll leave the difficult one or 2, at Kelvin. So the deterioration, yes, I think we felt it was important to call that out because if we look at jobs per head through Q4 globally, they were around about 10% down on Q4 2022. So we wanted to kind of highlight that because through the year, we've talked about really high levels of job flow. And I think it probably was a bit more of a normalization I don't think -- we look at the job flow and it's something that we're nervous about, but it is 10% down. And it was above that in a couple of the European markets like, say, France and Germany, which are big markets for us. What we don't know at this stage is whether that was just a bit of a cooling towards the end of the year as people just slightly kind of lost momentum, lost the appetite to recruit at the back end of the year, and they'll come back with more, more excitement, more willingness to start process or whether it was the start of a trend, but it's there. It's a number that's lower than we would have liked, and therefore, we felt it was important to say that in the statements. Exit rates, as you know, we never comment on. So we're not really going to change this time around. As regards to headcount, I mean, we've peaked at fee earner headcount in Q3 2022. And that was probably the point at which going into Q4, we started to see a bit of softening. So if you look back to our numbers, I mean, we have in a very controlled way using natural attrition across our markets, brought the headcount down over that period from peak, which I say was Q3 2022 by 17% and we've done it again, if you look through the numbers, it was 4% in Q4, 5% in Q3, 4% in Q2, 4% in Q1. So we just allowed that natural attrition that we benefit from when we need it to run through the business, losing consultants are struggling to make money in more difficult conditions and focusing our efforts on our best and more experienced people who can perform in difficult market conditions. So looking forward on headcount, we would probably still call out markets like the U.S. and China, where we think we're probably at the bottom and we wouldn't want to go much lower. So we'll hold headcount in those markets. But it is an art. It's not a science. So in a quarter, sometimes you might be slightly down. In other quarters, you might be slightly up. But as a trend, we'll be trying to hold and that's something significantly changes in either of those 2 markets. And places like the U.K., similar, I mean it feels as if we're hopefully getting towards the bottom, we brought the headcount down by a lot, and we probably want to start to kind of take a view on trying to hold where we're at probably Europe would be the one way we're looking at now. I mean as you'll remember, in H1 last year, we had a record performance so we brought headcount down slightly in certain markets where it softened in the second half. There might be a little bit more to come if it were to get worse. But again, we're just going to see how things trade in the return to work because at the moment, the softening that we saw in Europe was really across 2 or 3 months and what we need to see now is what happens when everyone comes back into the workplace, was it just something to do with the end of the year? Or is it something more significant, but we'll keep a close eye on that. We'll probably have a better idea come end of February, probably back end of March, probably more so.
Yes, I can pick up sort of normalization in perm markets. I think really it comes in a couple of places. So the salary offers that had really got exaggerated in the first half 2022 where in Europe, we were seeing offers between 15% and 20%. In the U.S., they were as high as 30%. They certainly normalized. And it normalized towards the latter end of 2022 and then really, as we've gone through 2023, you've seen that drop back to less than 10%, maybe 10% of the top end, maybe 5% in other places. So I think that normalization of the size of offers has occurred, and it's unlikely to go back up. Certainly, with inflation coming down, there's very little drive from clients who want to put big money on the table. I think the other side of it is with candidates, I think candidates have now got used to the idea that a 20% offer is not coming. But the other way around, their confidence in wanting to move is such that maybe a 5% offer isn't going to make them job. And therefore, what we saw towards the end of the quarter was certainly the risk reward profile between size of offer and risk to move wasn't favorable to candidates. And therefore, we saw the market slow. I think in a number of the markets and the levels that we operate, there are going to be people who were waiting for a bonus in January and maybe that was one of the reasons that things were a bit slower in December. Waiting also to possibly see what salary offers, inflationary salary offers, we're going to put on the table in January. And therefore, I think probably both of those things contributed in certain parts of our markets. As we come into this year, you'd like to think that confidence will return. And therefore, that risk reward profile for candidates means that it brings more perm candidates back into the market. But I think as Nick said, literally seconds ago, we've got to see that, and it's too early really now and certainly for the majority of people who are having a January payroll with a bonus in it, it's probably going to be somewhere around 20s -- 20 bps in a month. We'll probably see that occur when we get into February.
Our next question comes from Rory McKenzie from UBS.
It's Rory here. Just 2 questions, please. Firstly, just following that really helpful discussion you were having just there. Can you talk about the experience you're seeing at different skill levels of candidates or different salary brackets. What's happening in the top skills versus maybe more commoditized skill sectors and particularly in Europe at the moment, given that performance slowed in Q4? And then secondly, just touching on your savings programs. Obviously, you've expensed the GBP 5 million cost in this year and you were planning to see a GBP 20 million net savings number in FY '24. Is that still what you have in your budgets? Or are you making or tweaking those programs given how trends have evolved?
Okay. Well, I'll take the first one and then pass over to Kelvin. I mean in any market where you are looking for high skilled candidates, there is clearly supply and demand forces taking place. And that was probably reflected by the fact that in Q4, we still saw 7% growth in our contracting business in Germany. So where you still see the candidates that are in high demand and clients with a need to hire then the right offer will come through and the deal will take place. I think what we're seeing in many other markets that when you move around out of maybe some of those really kind of hyper-intense supply side issues to something more typical. So if you took a North America or you took a U.K. or even if you took some of the other countries in Europe and you took more typical roles like marketing manager, sales manager, finance manager it goes back to what Kelvin was saying a moment ago, which is the clients are probably looking at the increases of salaries that are being offered. In some cases, they're feeding back to us that they believe that there's been a probably an over reward of candidates through 2022 and 2023. So the market rate is above a level that they're comfortable paying because of this issue that they have internally then about rightsizing everybody else's salary in those types of roles. I mean if you have a finance manager, you probably have 2 or 3 finance managers. And therefore, if you bring one in and pay them considerably more, you probably spent last year getting those salaries to the right level so that everybody felt it was fair then you come into this year or get to the back end of last year. And if you make another hire that is at 10%, 15%, 20% higher than everybody else, then you've got the same issues all over again. So there just isn't an appetite in a lot of the core term Michael Page and Page Personnel recruitment to destabilize the salary equity that exists in their business. But as I say, when you get into some very, very high skilled markets, whether it's markets where we've seen a bit of a boost at the back end of the year and have performed well would be areas like the luxury sector, pharmaceuticals, energy and renewables, mining, all of those markets actually performed really well at the back end of last year. And therefore, if you're looking for highly skilled candidates in those areas, there was still a willingness on both sides to make the move if the offer was right and from a client perspective, therefore, make the right offer to make it happen. I think though in the majority of other sectors, it just had normalized, and we're still trying to just manage this probably this gap that still exists, but it is narrowing between what a candidate expects to get to move and what a client is willing to pay. But it's getting closer and closer and maybe this round of salary reviews in January for a lot of our candidates will actually probably be the final data point that they need to make them realize that the market is a normal market and isn't something like it was coming out of COVID, whereas Kelvin said a moment ago, you got salary increases that were 15%, 20%, 25%.
I can pick up on the savings. So savings program that we ran and really kicked off in the first half of last year was quite material, which is why we called it out and why we wanted to have it framed as a separate restructuring cost. It won't be exceptional in nature in terms of how we present it. It will be in the underlying P&L, but we have pulled it out to try and explain what was in it. There was GBP 5 million of cost in the first half of last year. There was GBP 10 million in the second half of last year. There was a GBP 10 million saving last year, which is where the net GBP 5 million cost comes into 2023. We remain comfortable that the ongoing just over GBP 20 million worth of savings on an annualized basis, will be there. And so in this year, we'll benefit by GBP 20 million. Albeit that we have spent just over GBP 10 million on wage inflationary increases to base salaries across our people. So it will be just under 10% in terms of a net saving that's carried forward outside of that. We're always looking to make savings. And so we will be looking to make further savings this year. I think we also are looking at the human resources function in terms of an opportunity that we may have to make some savings there and restructure that. But I don't expect either the cost or the savings to be as material in the current year as it was in the prior year. But we will be looking to make savings outside of fee earners, which, as you know, have been dropping by roughly 250 a quarter for the last 5 quarters.
Our next question comes from Hans Pluijgers from Kepler.
Two questions from my side. First of all, on the U.K. and Australia. Australia, you see, let's say, some deterioration. Could you maybe walk us through what you see in the different segments within that market? And then looking at U.K., some stabilization sequentially, is it really underlying the case? Or could you go maybe saw some what you expect there going into 2024. And then coming back on fee earners and especially China and the U.S., you said that you wanted to keep on -- the hold on to your more experienced fee earners but more in general is that if you have to cut more, is it really going to bite into your existing framework in your existing position in that market? Is the key driver that some offices, maybe your number of earners, fee earners is coming too small. So you give maybe some feeling on how that works in the those 2 markets.
Okay. Well, I'll take the first one. So U.K. and Australia, I mean, they've both been tough. I mean you've probably seen that reflected in the belts across the various companies that announced over the last week or so and the quarterly results that we've announced throughout 2023, I mean, it's been a difficult time in both of those markets. There isn't anything specifically to call out in the sense of any one market that's outperforming all of the others. I mean, it's been tough across the board because it's been a reflection in both the U.K. and Australia of a confidence issue and also probably the makeup of our business, which is more orientated to permanent temp, and that's the more difficult business to close for all the reasons that we've already talked about. So I can't really draw you towards any kind of particular area that's worse than others or areas that are better than others. I mean as I say, it's really been across the board in both U.K. and Australia. And therefore, we just continue to manage our business with a really close eye on productivity, making sure that we're nicely profitable in all of those offices, profitable in all the disciplines that we run. I mean you know that we run a profit share model in those markets. Therefore, our management teams are also very focused on the profit number to make sure that they keep the best consultants in their team and reward them well and look after them. But it's a difficult balance because right now in those 2 markets, it is very difficult. And we need to kind of make sure that we're focusing our efforts into the areas where we have strength and we have historical strength. So again, building out our businesses around finance, obviously, where we're strong technology and looking at sectors where we feel that there may be some recovery through this year. But it's literally month by month, quarter by quarter in those 2 businesses because it has been difficult.
I can pick up the second one. I think in China, first of all, in Mainland China, as you've seen in the statement, we were flat in Q4. that was really more about comps than it was about the market improving, but it would also imply that we're probably about rightsized in terms of where we need to be. We are top heavy in terms of the sort of the management that's there. So just over 1/3 of our people in China nowadays have over 6 years of experience. And to [ Keith's ] point earlier, whilst we haven't put anything in our thinking for this year about a recovery, you have to assume at some point, it will start to recover. And having invested over 6 years in those people, we're keen to retain them. Such that we can then pin more junior fee earner underneath them and reinflate that business quite quickly. So I think we're largely where we want to be in China. I think at this point, we'll try and hold. It was a little bit softer in Hong Kong, the Mainland China. But again, as the comps become easier, it's coming back towards us. In the U.S., we're somewhere broadly around 400. Again, we've got good coverage across where we want to be. We were experiencing pretty tough conditions in tech, in accounting and finance and in financial services, but it was much more robust in construction. That's over 50% of our business nowadays in the U.S. and we're comfortable that we'll hold on again to our more senior people in the U.S. I think with both of those markets with tough conditions and it's been tough conditions in both for some time now. A lot of the more junior people, self-select leaving the business because it is just tough if you don't have the experience to be able to train in these market conditions. But we'll try and hold on to both of them. It does mean that our conversion rate in both of those businesses are going to be artificially depressed because of the seniority of some of the people that we've got. But for the -- what is hopefully a relatively short period of time in the U.S. and an unknown period of time in China, we think that investment is worth making in those senior employees such that we can rebound.
[Operator Instructions] Our next question comes from Steve Woolf from DB Numis.
Just a follow-on really from that sort of analysis and thoughts on Germany now where we see it as a big delta Q3 to Q4. So just wondering where we are in terms of those end markets on perm that might have been hit a little harder and then some follow-up on the headcount given it's been one of the key markets for investment over the past couple of years. Where do we sit now with either in that drift or continuing to invest.
Thanks, Steve. I mean, Germany, as you say, has been a real success story for us over a long period of time. So based on maybe a slightly disappointing Q4 in weakening conditions particularly in perm, I don't think there's any real pivot in terms of our sentiment. I mean if we look at the market in a bit more detail, I mean, we're around about 50% perm and 30%, 32% contracting, about 15%, 16% temp. So that's the split of our business. So with that in mind, I mean, if there is a softening in perm, it is going to turn up in our numbers. There's not much we can do about that because, as I say, the fact that we are a market-leading business on the perm side in Germany and we have seen it be a bit tougher over there. I mean, as I called out before, I mean we've seen a decreased number of open jobs. Clients are being a bit more cost conscious, I suppose with all of the stuff that even we've seen in the news, over here in the U.K. around the train strikes and the farmers marching or driving factors into Berlin. I mean, clearly, there's some unrest in that area. But the fee percentages, the salary levels, they remain stable and there's been no notable changes in that area. We've got high activity in terms of clients wanting to meet with us at the back end of the year. So we had lots and lots of client meetings it just really wasn't turning into clients wanting to engage or open up job briefs at this time. Now maybe that will, maybe that will in Q1. Maybe that was the purpose of all those meetings at the back end of the year was teeing us up for work that will come our way during Q1. But a bit early to call that. In terms of the sectors, I mean, we saw that tech was a little bit down in Q4, but finance and engineering were up. And so our contracting business is across all 3 of those areas. So we benefited from the fact that we're not just totally in tech, albeit that we do have a big slug of our business there, but we also have contracted out in finance and engineering. So I mean what else can I tell you, I mean, from a perm perspective, I mean, good candidates are still getting multiple offers in Germany. And therefore, what it makes it very difficult for us to forecast in our business because will have a candidate who will have accepted our offer, but then we'll accept another offer. So potentially, you have the risk that, that deal that you had then gets turned down because they get an offer somewhere else. If they do, they accept your offer, they then go into their line manager who then either increases their salary or put something on the table, which may then be another reason why they turn the offer down. So it's a really unusual set of market conditions because in something that was more recessionary what we'd see is a drying up of the job flow completely and you just have consultants doing business development all day long trying to generate jobs. And that isn't the case, we still have incoming work. There are clients coming back to us wanting to hire in certain areas. They have growth plans. It's just that sense though if the client wants the perfect candidate and the candidate wants the perfect job. And the only thing that ever takes anything away from that kind of risk reward that Kelvin spoke about earlier, is higher payments to take the risk away if the job isn't the perfect job, for example, an extra 20% makes it a bit more perfect than it was. So we'll have to see where things are going, as I say, I'd like to be able to give you kind of more of an insight as to what we believe '24 will look like. But on the basis that in my 30 years at Page, I've not really seen trading conditions that like these ones. It is quite hard to call because what you do know is that if there was some recovery in terms of confidence from both a client and candidate perspective, the actual through flow of work that we have would quickly start making our consultants way, way more productive and therefore, the business is more profitable. But it's a question on confidence what feeds that confidence? And often it's headlines and some of those are pretty ugly right now.
We currently have no further questions. So I would like to hand the call back to Kelvin Stagg for closing remarks. Over to you.
Thanks, Bruno. As there are no further questions, I'd like to thank you all for joining us this morning. Our next update to the market will be our full year 2023 trading update, and that's on the seventh of March. Thank you all for your time.
Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's call. Thank you for joining. You may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.
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