Praemium Limited (PPS) Earnings Call Transcript

Thank you for standing by, and welcome to Praemium Limited FY 2025 Results Presentation. [Operator Instructions] I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Anthony Wamsteker, Chief Executive Officer. Please go ahead.

Thank you, Ranjith, and welcome, everyone, to our full year results presentation. Thanks for joining us. I'm joined today as a presenter by Simon Moore, the Interim CFO at Praemium. At Praemium, we acknowledge the traditional custodians of country and pay our respects to their elders past and present. Whilst I won't read the disclaimer, I draw your attention to it, it is available in the presentation as published on the ASX website. Our agenda for today is to go through the highlights for the past year, then talk in more detail about the financials, have a final session from us on the strategy and outlook and conclude with questions. And I note that there are a number of people on the line who have got questions prepared. So thank you, and thanks again for your interest. This year has been a remarkable year for Praemium and the highlight has really been the strong revenue growth, which flowed through to an even stronger uplift in EBITDA. The primary drivers of that are that we have a market-leading noncustody solution. Whilst the noncustody part of our business doesn't drive enormous amount of the revenue, it's still significant, of course, but it's not the biggest part of our revenue. But increasingly, in our preferred segment of the high-net-worth adviser, the ability to offer a fully integrated noncustody solution is critical to achieving success. Complementing that and more importantly, from a long-term revenue perspective is, we built out our platform offering by launching Spectrum, which has grown to $2.4 billion since we launched it. It was a great effort by the team involved in developing and launching Spectrum, and we're very happy with the people who, not only launched the product, but the ability to reposition the business and the way we position the business in the market, some changes to color schemes and branding. And importantly, the momentum that we generated from that launch has led to strong interest, which is -- gives us great confidence in our sales pipeline. We carry good momentum going forward, thanks to some large client wins this year, and I'll talk a little bit more about that in a minute. And finally, I just want to draw your attention to the fact that we continue to return capital to shareholders. During the year, we had a buyback, but also we -- fully franked dividends that we've paid this year, and we've announced with this announcement a $0.0125 fully franked dividend. When I have talked to shareholders in the past, I've talked about an aspiration to grow both revenue and EBITDA. In an ideal world, revenue would grow at double digits and EBITDA would grow even stronger as we get more scale into the business. And this slide shows the trajectory, which allows us to see that we have delivered on that aspiration over the last 3 years, and we're very happy with that level of growth. That doesn't mean that we're complacent. We obviously feel like we can, not only sustain it, but we would like to improve it as we move forward. When I have the opportunity to talk to shareholders, and as I've said before, there's really 7 formal opportunities a year for me to talk to shareholders being the 4 quarterly close results, the financial results, the half year and like we are today, the full year results and then the AGM, I'd like to talk about our progress on strategy, and I'd like to talk about what our strategy drivers are: product, operations, service, superannuation and growth. And I think that gives clarity to people that this is what we're trying to achieve and gives our shareholders the opportunity when they talk to us in management and the Board on the opportunities they do have those opportunities to ask us whether they're the right areas or challenges on whether they're the right areas to be focused on. But in each of those areas, we give a bit of an update each time we present to the market on where we're going. Obviously, the big thing on the product was the launch of Spectrum over the last year, but now there's further opportunities to enhance that as the early adopters of that product have come on board, and we now have good input on what we should do to refine that. So the product is largely focused around the Spectrum -- continuing to uplift Spectrum because that is now our primary platform product, and as always, continue to upgrade the user experience for our clients. On -- another one I just want to call out, I'm not going to talk to everything on this slide, but needless to say, it does take a lot of management focus during the year. This is what we do talk about as a management group, how we're going on these things. But one other thing I just want to talk about, everyone is aware and everyone talks about what's happening in AI. And we took the opportunity this year to say we'll work with a supplier who can build a new superannuation administration system for us, who is a leading provider of machine learning-based programs and software, and we've been very happy with that. Indeed, we're now in the final stage of testing and giving feedback on how that superannuation system works to that supplier, but we see other opportunities to come out of that. Now AI is going to change the way business works. It's changing it for everything. And we -- over the last 3 years or so, we've been very aware that all of the good ideas in AI won't come from our team. A lot of good ideas will come from our team. We've got a very capable and strong development team, and they've been doing some tremendous work for us. But a lot of the opportunities will come outside our business. And so, I'm very grateful to our tech leadership and people who work in our technology department that we've got a far more open architecture than we had and modular architecture than we had a number of years ago, and I'm very confident that with the partnerships that we have in the market now, we will deliver some leading-edge opportunities in the area, starting with superannuation, but expanding to the rest of the business. Finally, on this slide, I said I was going to talk a little bit more about the 3 big wins. People have heard me say before, the market for financial advisers is a bit over 15,000 on the asset database. And there's about 1/3 of them are in small firms, which were about up to 10 people, 10 advisers in the practice. There are about 1/3 in middle size, which is from 10 up to 100 and there are about 1/3 of the advice community working for large licensees where they've got over 100. In that large category, we are frequently in the mix when they run an RFP. Those RFPs for the larger providers tend to be more sophisticated than the smaller players. But we are delighted that in the 3 that we're aware of, we have been successful in winning those large advice groups onto our platform and the different parts of our offering, our Spectrum offering, our Scope+ offering and our Managed Account offering have all been successful with large advice groups. So I think that gives us confidence, it should give our shareholders confidence that the momentum we've had over the last 3 years can continue. When I talk about what our strategy is, we do hold ourselves accountable, and we talk a little bit about it. And what we're showing in this slide is that, the -- in the 2024 presentation, these 3 areas were what we said we had to achieve over the current year, and we're very happy with the progress that we've made in each of those 3 areas. So we do hold ourselves accountable, not just to talk about the strategy, but then to execute. And again, something people have heard me before is, if you think there's something wrong with the strategy, you can always talk to us. If, however, you think the strategy is broadly right, then it comes down to executing, and we feel that we have delivered for shareholders over the last year. When we come to the product, obviously, I talk a lot about product and product is very important. And once again, our performance in the investment trend survey shows that we are delivering a very good product into the market and certainly what we regard as the leading platform for high-net-worth advisers. And so, we're very happy with the external validation of what we've got to offer. And the next thing I just want to talk about, this slide that we haven't talked about before, we've developed it this year because often we get asked what is the strategy when you win a big client? How does that look? And we have a full product range, so we can offer a range of services and product depending on what the client really needs. And this is an example of why the broad product suite is important. If we were to win a client, what this slide is saying, and this is for broking in particular, but we've got a similar view of how we might tackle the high-net-worth adviser market, which is not based on brokers. Now a lot of the high-net-worth advisers work for a broking business, but some of the -- many of the high-net-worth advisers are not in broking, but the broking segment probably represents around about half of our total market. There's 2,300 advisers who work for stock brokers, and we service about 40% of the segment across our product range. But often, what we would -- we always say to our salespeople, we are happy for you to sit and listen to what the adviser wants and then talk to them about what we can offer them as a solution. And that solution might be as simple as our reporting service Scope, Software as a Service. And -- but then over time, the more we demonstrate our capabilities to that advice, we've got the opportunity to sell more and more into that client. And that might reflect in the superannuation offering or the model portfolio service, the SMA service. It could ultimately go to a full administration service of Scope+ or indeed Spectrum. What the numbers in that mean, obviously, it's indicative. It's not a real thing. But our opportunity is, as the broking firm grows their business, we can service more of their FUA. So the left-hand side, FUA 1, 2, 3 and 4x is reflective of the money that we might manage for a firm. And so, part of that is they grow and part of it is we service more of what their clients need. But the revenue grows even faster than FUA. And again, it's just indicative, but it's why -- when we talk to our salespeople and they say, I've got a stockbroking firm and they just need Scope, they are rewarded for having built the relationship and selling Scope because in the long run, it starts a journey with that advice group that can lead to more and more revenue over time and a closer and closer relationship. But as I say, stockbroking is a very important segment for what we're doing. And in our target market, about half of the advisers work for broking firms. And finally, to just talk about that high-net-worth segment in total, again, not just the broker segment, but there are a number of themes. We do a lot of research in that market. Some of the research is available just to us and our team. Some of the research we share with our clients and our target clients, but some of these themes I've got there are just what we're seeing in the market. And definitely, the top 2 of noncustody growth and the market demand for alternatives speak to the need for the high-net-worth advisers to talk to their clients about a broad portfolio of assets. Everyone is aware -- everyone on the call is aware, we hear more and more about more and more of the investment opportunities are not just listed securities now. And so, the noncustody and the alternative segment are very important as part of diversifying the high-net-worth portfolios and what advisers need to talk to their clients about. The bottom 2 are more about how you operate and the systems and technology, which is more powerful now than it's ever been. And so, very important that we can play a role in that. And the ratings that we get by the independent assessor of platforms and investment trends show that we're doing a pretty good job on those as well and position us well for the future. So that's it by way of introduction, but important to move on to the financial results. So I'll hand over to Simon. Thanks, Simon.

Thanks, Anthony. So if we just go to the group results. Excellent. Thank you. The key highlight for FY '25 is the 31% EBITDA growth to $28.1 million, which is an improvement of 130 basis points in the EBITDA margin to 27.2%. The EBITDA growth is from the underlying SMA and IDPS businesses of Praemium and Powerwrap, which I'll unpack for you during this presentation. Whilst there is M&A revenue growth contribution from OneVue, at an EBITDA level, OneVue is flat and not a contributor. So the EBITDA growth that you see is from our non-OneVue businesses. EBITDA growth flows through to NPAT and to EPS, providing growth of 55%, 56% and enabling a dividend uplift to $0.0125 per share fully franked. This is a pattern that you would like to see with good platform businesses, solid top line growth with operating leverage delivering improvement in profitability. So let's walk through our story for '25. Let's start with FUA growth. As previously announced, total FUA grew 12% in FY '25 to $64.3 billion. Of that growth, $4.3 billion related to Scope+. This is noncustodial business where revenue is account-based, not FUA-based. So for this discussion, our focus will be on platform FUA as that drives 80% of our revenue. Platform FUA grew $2.6 billion or 9% in FY '25. [Audio Gap] I presume we're still I'm sorry, there was a bit of noise coming through here. Platform FUA growth is a mixture of new organic growth with the Spectrum product, as Anthony mentioned, plus continuing growth in SMA and Powerwrap, tempered by some fallout from Powerwrap departed advisers and some losses from OneVue, which is not unexpected. On the next slide, we'll see how this has translated into revenue. In total, revenue grew by $20 million or 25% in FY '25. Most of this growth was in platform revenue, which is explained in the chart in the bottom left-hand corner. Platform revenue grew by $20 million or 32%. Of the $20 million growth, $15.4 million relates to volume and $4.6 million relates to a 2 basis point margin gain. Just over half of the volume growth or $7.8 million came from including a full year of OneVue. [Audio Gap] So just a half -- $7.8 million of volume growth came from including a full year of OneVue in '25. In FY '24, there was only a couple of months of OneVue revenue in the numbers. So the picture is excluding OneVue, Praemium got 9% FUA growth, platform FUA growth and 20% platform revenue growth, a function of both volume and margin. Portfolio Services is a more stable picture, as Anthony mentioned. I should note there has been some repricing in the portfolio services later in FY '25 with some further uplifts yet to come. The Bell Potter client win has not come into the Portfolio Services numbers as yet because it's being onboarded in the first half of FY '26. There will be some client departures that are expected in FY '26 with IPS and Asgard. Overall, we think the wins and losses in Portfolio Services in FY '26 will largely offset. But coming back to SaaS revenue and our picture of SaaS revenue growth. We see that SaaS revenue growth, excluding OneVue of 15.9%, which in combination with the EBITDA margin of 27.2% is a Rule of 40 score of 43.1. If I move to direct expenses? As with revenue, FY '25 has a full year of OneVue costs included. OneVue contributed $2.3 million to direct cost uplift. Excluding OneVue, direct costs increased by 22%, but a large element of that increase is actually a cost allocation matter. The cost allocation matter follows the business change we instituted in FY '25. We closed an operations function in Armenia and replaced it with an outsourced provider. What was an overhead below the gross profit line is now a direct cost. If I remove that noise from the direct costs, direct costs, excluding OneVue actually grew by 4%, less than the growth in revenue, less than the growth in platform FUA. Even with the new allocation, gross profit grew at 22% or 15.3% ex OneVue. And now I'll turn to how this translates into EBITDA. OpEx for FY '25 was $65.7 million, almost a 19% increase on FY '24. Once again, most of that increase is from the inclusion of OneVue for a full year in '25. Ex OneVue, OpEx grew from $53.6 million to $58.1 million, an increase of 8%. That 8% increase is less than the growth in platform FUA and less than the growth in platform revenue. To complete the picture, OneVue added $7.6 million of OpEx, contributing a negative $0.6 million EBITDA. At this stage, no synergy benefits from OneVue is in our numbers. The OneVue integration is a straight lift and drop. When the transfers from Iress to Praemium systems are complete, the old systems will be decommissioned and the cost savings will be realized. The combination of 25% revenue growth, improvement in gross margin and OpEx growth lower than revenue is what has driven the EBITDA uplift of $6.5 million to $28.1 million or 31%, which is the 130 basis point improvement in our EBITDA margin. So if we move to the next slide. The EBITDA uplift is also carried through to profit before tax, which is up 44% to $16.7 million. Profit before taxes after noncash items and one-off costs. Share-based payments and depreciation and amortization are the noncash items. Share-based payments in FY '25 are lower than FY '24, which is really just a function of accounting methodology. Our methodology applies the service weighting to allow for the probability of participants not being there at the expiration of the program. FY '25 has a lot of the share-based payment in the first year of a 3-year cycle. So there has been a lower weighting applied this year. Assuming everyone is here at the end of the cycle will reverse in the later years as higher weightings will then be applied. D&A is up in FY '25, in part due to the D&A of the acquired OneVue assets now being included in the numbers. D&A in the future will grow in line with CapEx. In terms of CapEx, in FY '25, we had $10 million of CapEx versus $8 million in FY '24. As Anthony mentioned, we have made an investment to create improvements in our superannuation capabilities, and there has also been a significant investment to strengthen our technology infrastructure and security. The largest one-off cost item relates to the OneVue integration. This integration is scheduled to complete in the first half of FY -- in the first half of '26. I expect the first half results will be able to provide you with the final washup of the integration costs and synergy realization. The restructure and redundancies in the chart come mostly from the business change I mentioned earlier, switching operations from Armenia to an outsourced provider. Bottom line, we ended up with a net PAT of $13.6 million, up 55%. The income tax expense of $3.2 million is an effective rate of tax with 19%, which is lower than the prima facie rate of tax due to [ franking ] credits, R&D tax credits and various timing differences. The net PAT result supported by free cash flow, a liquid balance sheet has supported a declaration by the Board of a final dividend of $0.0125 per share fully franked. Finally, the financial position. The balance sheet is a very straightforward picture. Praemium has both strong liquidity and capital. Current assets are more than double total liabilities. Capital and liquid holdings are in part a function of the number of AFSLs we have in the group. We may look to rationalize these AFSLs over time and simplify our corporate structure and create greater capital efficiency. The major call out on the balance sheet is the increase in intangibles, which is a function of the R&D and reinvestment in the business mentioned earlier, particularly the development of the enhanced superannuation capability and strengthening our infrastructure. Anthony will speak more about those capabilities next. So in summary, from a financial perspective, it is a very straightforward picture of a platform technology company operating at an economic scale, generating cash, reinvesting in the business and delivering attractive returns to shareholders. Over to you, Anthony.

Thanks, Simon. So whenever we talk about the business, obviously, like all businesses, we serve the market, we're very clear in what market we serve, the high-net-worth market. And all of us who work in the business [ today ] have enjoyed the benefit of the business over many years having built some capabilities that are market-leading capabilities and our duty as the current generation of management is to build on those capabilities for the current generation of requirements for the high-net-worth adviser. So we inherited Scope. That was the original product of the market -- of the business. And then over the years, the SMA was added and the Super SMA as well. Then we added an admin service and more recently, we've added a full wrap service. So that gives us 4 key components to our suite. And we think for the reasons outlined on this slide that we've pretty much got the market as it stands today well covered, and we look forward to the opportunity of building on that further because as I say, there's never been a time where the technology opportunity is greater. It's a tremendous opportunity for us to build on that great foundation that we've got in place already. And so, what is the focus and outlook? It's to capitalize on Spectrum's position as a leading solution for high-net-worth advice, as I say, right at the start there. And as I said earlier, a lot of our product work now is the refinement of Spectrum as more and more clients come on board. It is to provide a significant uplift in superannuation capability. We -- superannuation is the biggest vehicle or sector of the wealth market, and we've been disappointed as we've talked earlier and in previous presentations about our superannuation capabilities. So a significant uplift in that. Continue to drive to offer the largest range of investments and not only reporting but execution. And in the earlier slide on some of the areas of focus, we are building out our transactional and investment capabilities further. We should complete the integration of OneVue, of course. And with the success that we've had, it gives us a priority on client onboarding. So when you ask people in Praemium, hopefully, if you ask anyone in Praemium, what's our #1 priority, it's onboarding client wins. And as we've said before, we've got an aspiration to continue to deliver double-digit revenue growth and to grow EBITDA even faster than revenue, which requires that expenses will grow but grow at a slower rate than revenue. And then mathematically just works out that way. So that's what we aspire to do. We are excited about the opportunities in front of us. We think we're well positioned. We're happy with our team, and I would like to acknowledge all the people at Praemium who have delivered these results for '25 and who continue to work on building a good future for our business. With that, I'll stop, and we'll open it up for those people who have waited patiently online.

[Operator Instructions] The first question comes from the line of Cameron Halkett with Wilsons Advisory.

If I can just start around the cost side of things, please. In the second half, your sales and marketing expense was particularly lower half-to-half. I suppose can you just talk around that and whether that's just rolling off prior efforts in the first half with the Spectrum launch and whether perhaps we should be considering the second half to be the more appropriate baseline expense base going forward, please?

Yes. Thanks for that, Cam. And as is often the case with these things, I'm sorry that it's a bit of both, like the second half was lower because the first half had the launch. And because we generated a strong pipeline arising from the launch, we were not in a position where we had to do a lot to keep generating new inquiry. But going forward, as the launch goes into the background a bit, we'll have to pick up a bit on from what we did in the second half. But certainly, we wouldn't expect to need to jump to the level that we were in the first half. So it's probably a bit between half 1 and half 2. And the full year number is probably as good a guide as any.

Super, Anthony, that's really helpful. If I can come to one of Simon's comments around portfolio services. So I think for the first half results call, it was pretty clear that IPS would be moving off with the DASH acquisition. But I think that's the first time you've just confirmed there that Asgard will be departing with Westpac's force migration on to Panorama. Can I just confirm that?

Yes. We've been notified that they will be moving. The final time line is not yet locked in, but they continue to have a view that they will move off. They've had that view for a while, and they have told us that they will move off, but -- and they've given us an indicative time but not a locked-in time as far as I understand.

Okay. So I suppose pulling Portfolio Services altogether, you're going to have a full year impact of price increases in FY '26. Bells will come through as a contributor as well. But then you'll also have the churn impacts of IPS and it sounds like at some point, some amount for Asgard. So pulling that all together, assuming no big growth in portfolios outside of the expected, do you think Portfolio Services can still show growth in the coming financial year?

Yes. Obviously, it will be driven now. There's a bit of the price increase rolling through, but now it will be driven by the sales that we can generate. And we do -- like Bell is an example of a win and as I say, the large advice firms only make up 1/3 of the market. They get a lot of attention, but they're 1/3 of the market, 2/3 of the market is in small and medium firms. And so we continue to be happy with our pipeline. We mentioned winning a Bells because it shows you -- because it's visible. When people say, are you competitive in the markets you operate? What is visible is where the big firms have gone. And so we clearly show that we're competitive. But it's not just big firms in the pipeline. There's medium and small firms, which make up 2/3 of the advisers. So we are competitive when we pitch, and we're very excited about the strength of our pipeline. But you're quite right that it will only be the growth that offsets those losses, but we remain confident that we can achieve the growth to offset those losses.

Yes. I mean, your FY '19 report had Asgard contributing a minimum of about $3 million per year. So, even 10% revenue growth from your price increases on the $20 million this year, that's only an incremental $2 million. So you're up a bit of a headwind there. So let's hope for growth all up maybe this year. Maybe just one final question before handing over to someone else. Just I suppose with OneVue, you've got comments in the annual report here as well around integration being done by the end of the first half or around about there. So just I suppose, in painting the picture around outlook with the synergy targets you've outlined before, can people expect around an incremental $1 million, maybe $1.5 million of EBITDA pickup through this year, just as that integration concludes as you extract those synergies?

If we achieve the synergies and so there's achieved the finish of the migration, then there's a lag until we achieve the synergies, but not massive lag, but no more than a quarter, for example. If we achieve the synergies, and we've talked about $3 million in synergies. If we achieve $3 million exactly at 31st of December, of course, it's $1.5 million for the full year, but in the second half. But those are the swing factors. Now when do we finalize the last migration? What's the gap between the last migration and the synergies? And is the total $3 million.

Next question comes from the line of Tom Tweedie with MA Moelis Australia.

Just firstly, on your revenue guidance or you aspire to continue double-digit revenue growth. Can you just give us a bit more of a sense of what you're factoring into that aspirational target? Is there more large client wins? Or is that just organic from the existing client base and furthering your penetration there?

So the existing wins that we've got, if we onboard properly, and as I say, that's the #1 priority in our business now, would deliver double-digit growth for some time to come.

All right. That's helpful. And just on the OpEx investment into FY '26, can you give us a bit of a sense of how that would compare to '25 in terms of headcount? And where in the business would you be looking to deploy the extra headcount or investment across the different segments?

So look, this is a very complex question in the current environment because of the power of technology. But what you'll notice when you look at the individual functions that we split out for the total costs, technology has been building for a while. It's had the fastest growth rate for some time now. And as we invest in technology, we automate more and more of our business. And obviously, that's the aspiration. Everyone aspires now to automate more and more of their functions. And it's -- whenever you read about AI and the power of technology, you hear that automation is more and more available to those who deploy technology effectively. So I think we continue to grow our technology spend and less so our operations area. But all up, we do think that the costs go up for both some expansion in numbers or capacity and some inflation. But it shouldn't rise as fast as revenue, which is the aspiration. I'm not sure if that's what you were asking, Tom. Is that what you were saying?

No, that's fine. That's really clear. Sorry, just one final one. I was just going to ask around the platform revenue margins. Obviously, within Spectrum, we've come up to sort of 28 basis points all-in margins. How do you think about going forward? Is that sustainable for the next 2 or 3 years? Or should we either expect more improvements given price increases already through? Or is it something that a competitive market might look to sort of compress over the sort of medium-term?

So the market is competitive. The structure of the market is that there's a lot of participants in the market. So it is a competitive market. But to date, we've seen a relatively positive market for margins. Indeed, there's been some margin expansion in recent years, particularly as the cash margin went from almost 0 to gradually rising. So -- and that's a decent chunk of the total revenue. We think that it's probably a relatively stable environment at the higher level. But in part, it also, as I've said before, comes to your average account size because the bigger the accounts, the lower the basis points, although the dollars per account is higher.

Next question comes from the line of Nick McGarrigle with Barrenjoey.

Just a couple of things to clarify. So the Asgard notice is expected to kick in from a revenue impact when, sorry, just to double check that.

We don't have a specific date. So it's an expected departure, but there's not a date that's given. So it's put it as downside risk. The point I was making is that we expect the losses to be offset by the tailwinds that we've got.

Yes. I guess, that benefits because you only maybe get a half year of the impact from Asgard potentially and you've got full year run rates of the price rises and the new client wins kind of thing over on a 2-year view. Is that the way to think about it?

Yes, I think that's fair.

Cool. And then just in terms of any kind of any other price changes, I think have we seen the benefit of the price changes on the Scope side and the platform side wash through for a full period in that second half? Or are there some of the price changes that you think continue to give a tailwind into '26?

I think the price changes are on the Portfolio Services, and there will be some tailwinds from Portfolio Services coming through in '26.

Okay. And then just a comment around the average revenue yield on Spectrum now that you've kind of got a few more months with the book coming through. I think the first quarter, you had big flows. It was a lot of high-net-worth, maybe less so in the kind of June quarter, but just the way to think about the margin there as we move forward.

So my sense, Nick, is that, the margin will finish between SMA and Powerwrap and therefore, probably close to our average margin that we disclosed. And -- but the biggest driver, like the pricing for each element of the service is very similar to SMA and Powerwrap and they're relatively close themselves. There's only minor differences in the components, trading and cash and the base platform fee. The biggest driver has always been the average account size. And because we think the average account size will be higher than SMA, but lower than Powerwrap, that's what makes us think the average margin will finish up around what the company margin has averaged. And the early indications are that, that's as good an estimate as any at this stage. But because we publish it regularly, you'll see over time whether we've got anything wrong in that. But the biggest difference will be average account size.

Okay. Cool. And then just the timing of those new client wins, I mean, some of them are just organic, some of them are product replacements. Is that right? Just the way to think about the revenue profile from Euroz, Bells and Morgans?

Yes, exactly. Bells will be a migration and Euroz will be a migration and Morgans is a growth, a new product for them.

Next question comes from the line of Hayden Nicholson with Bell Potter.

Can you hear me?

Yes, Hayden.