Renaissance Services SAOG (RNSS) Earnings Call Transcript

A very good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to the Renaissance Services SAOG Investors and Analyst Meet. I'm saying good afternoon because this is 1:30 p.m. Oman time, but good morning and good evening to those of you who are calling in from different time zones. For those who are familiar with our format, it's very simple. This event is about you and your questions and what you would like to know. So we don't have speeches or presentations. You've seen our numbers. You've seen our Chairman statement that's been issued and we are open to answer your questions. I'm joined as usual by my close colleague and partner, the CFO and Deputy CEO, Vishal Goenka; and myself, Stephen Thomas, the CEO. We're here to answer your questions. So over to you for whoever would like to ask the first question.

So [ Shreyas ], please feel free to ask your question.

Am I audible?

Yes, [ Shreyas ], you are audible. Good afternoon. Please go ahead.

So I was just wondering if the company can disclose the revenue and the EBITDA contribution from Duqm Village, the PAC contracts and the [ FMG ] catering contracts?

Sure. Steve, should I go ahead with this?

I'm happy -- who would you like to go? I'm happy to go, Vishal, the...

Go ahead, Steve.

Okay. As you see from what we have reported, and we normally only report the headline number, the OMR 54 million for the total company for the half year. If you look at -- if you want it broken down into those constituent parts, the actual PAC contracts, the PDO PAC contracts generated about OMR 13.6 million of there, and Duqm generated OMR 14.2 million of that. And the balance is from the other contract services, FM and operation businesses.

This is for the first half, correct?

Yes.

For the first half, yes.

And the EBITDA contribution?

So the EBITDA contribution. Yes, go ahead.

So on EBITDA contribution, it is very difficult to give the margins for each of the business because these are -- but we can generally give you overall our -- the PAC margins or village margins at EBITDA level, we make around 40% overall blended. So it is fair to assume that 40% EBITDA margins for our RS village, PAC and Duqm. And in terms of contract services business, the EBITDA margin would be in a lower double digit.

And the second question I had was with regarding -- it was with regards to the Manazil PDO. So any update on the status of the tender or any guidance regarding the same?

Yes. Thank you, [ Shreyas ]. The -- obviously, we're not at liberty to talk about a live tender, but I can tell you the sort of timing that our client has indicated for us. In the original program, we would have known the result by now. The client has explained that the analysis of the bids is going on well. They obviously have to get around all their shareholders with a mega project of this size and do their presentations to that. That's been somewhat constrained in the current circumstances. So the last indication we were given was to expect an announcement towards the end of this month or during the coming months. That's the last we know. Of course, we are not in control of that process. And if anything has changed for our client in the gap, that they will need to extend that timing again, but we are expecting the outcome imminently.

Great. So if I just could sneak in just one last question, and I'll just get back in the queue. So with respect to the MOH contract renewal, I believe we are up for renewal since -- it was a 3-year contract that signed back in 2018 June. So just wondering what is the status of the contract? I mean, are we expecting any price improvements from the previous time? And are you expecting any extension instead of a 3-year contract, something like a 4 or 5-year contract, something on the sense, please?

Certainly. We can give you -- again, in principle, it's a live tender, although the tender has been submitted and is known that. We are in a situation where MOH is not able to award the contracts in time and therefore, meet our current contract to extend. Our current contract actually finished on the 31st of May. So the extension would be 1 year starting the 1st of June. Now there have been some challenges for the client in administering that. And obviously, the different bodies, the tender board is involved, the Ministry of Finance, Ministry of Health, of course, as the clients as well. So that process is ongoing. You asked about if it would be a higher price, it would for a variety of reasons because there have been some significant increases, as you know, in the cost of doing business, whether it's on the visa side and our own range of other issues. There's been the COVID impact and some things that will be with us permanently in terms of PPE and so on. So different changes that come into the cost and therefore translate into the price. So we have put in a proposal to the ministry, which they have accepted, but that has to be processed. So we don't have the physical signed document back. But this would mean, as you know, we are significant incumbents. We have 100% of the services in all the hospitals and catering, for cleaning, for laundry, for maintenance and the pest control et cetera, I should say. And so it's a significant piece of our contract services work. And we are therefore able to say confidently that, that will extend for a year. Then there is the issue of the new tender. Again, in that, there were some other additional issues in that and that there are some scope changes as well. I'll give a simple example. Utilities of the actual service areas will be paid by the contractor, not by the client going forward. So those scope changes also mean a difference in price. And of course, we have to look ahead for a 3-year period that does carry with it a 1-year extension option to that as well. So we, of course, have seen the tender opening results because it is a transparent process in the public domain, which you can look up in the tender for your good selves. And we -- whilst we don't judge what decisions might be made because that is a matter for the client to go through the detail of the tenders submitted, but we are in a very strong position to retain all or a very significant proportion of what we held originally. And in previous discussions when MOH has been asked, we responded that we expected -- we were targeting to retain about 75%, knowing that we did need to put some enhanced increases into that given what's happened in the last year with COVID. But I think we may be retaining far more than that is the impression. That is something that is not for us to decide it's our clients to go through it. But when you look at the tender opening and results, we have put in a very commanding bid that puts us in pole position.

And [ Shreyas ], just to add one more point, what Steve has said here our commanding position that when we looked at the tender results, that some people have bid for a few hospitals, some have bid for majority, but no one has really bid for full. It shows that no one can -- like of course anyone can bid for full and participate, but then it requires a lot of capability. But Renaissance has bid for portfolio. And I'm very happy with our services. So that shows our capability.

Yes. Some of the bidders might be smaller SMEs, just bidding for the hospital in their area. And it would be quite normal for the ministry to look at how much it can get out to the SMEs as well in that, and we never had any objections to that. I mean what they do know is when they award to us, both through our procurement in the supply chain as well as what might be able to be outsourced from a local community SME that we always maximize that anyway, wherever we operate in whatever project that is. So the SMEs tend to benefit as being part of our supply chain whether or not they get a direct award themselves. But that's where Vishal is pointing out to you. If you look at some of the numbers of the tenders that are open, they might seem quite low but that will be because they are just targeted at some of the hospitals, not all of them. Thank you.

Hettish, please ask your question.

Can you hear me?

Yes, Hettish. You are clear.

So again, I just wanted to clarify. So the Ministry of Health contract is now a 1-year renewal extension and then a 3-year -- it's a separate one.

Yes. So what we are a long way down and MOH themselves have approved the 1-year extension, there is a process to get it signed off. So in that sense, my words are a little premature, but I'm very confident -- the ministry is very confident that their decision will be upheld. It just has to go through a process. The -- what is under process is the review of the new tender. That tender would be for 3 years with a 1-year option. And that would now start from the 1st of June next year. So the extension will be current terms and conditions with the consideration on pricing that we have asked the ministry to look at, which they have approved. And then the new price -- and the new tender is into, there's a main bid where there is actual staffing and everything prescribed by MOH and there's an alternative bid that offers them a good saving by some initiatives that we can do that delivers exactly compliant outcome. And I'm very pleased to say, and if you speak to MOH or even you see the video they put out about the services they get from us, they're very happy with those services. So they got a compliant performance, high standard, but we've got an alternative in there that is offering it to them in a way that would be more cost effective. It's still higher than the current cost because there are changes that require that over the next 3 years.

Correct. My next question is how do we see the overall businesses in Duqm area and the occupancy level? How do you see them in the coming period. Do you see what occupancy levels and -- in village, Duqm and the overall businesses, how you assess that situation?

The -- so we have -- in Duqm, we have, at the moment, the occupancy has fallen back. At this precise moment in time, it's about 11,500. And it is constrained by 2 issues. So I mean that sort of 62% of the capacity, and therefore, we're happy to say we're able to continue profitably and happily in that respect at this level of occupancy. But the constraint is that there is a requirement of 6,000 new intake, the project in Duqm required, but they cannot mobilize for the visa situation and the restriction in air travel. And both of these things need to lift so that the projects and their contractors are able to bring these 6,000 in. Now one of the projects is looking at getting permission. And this is something that's going on as we speak. So this is expecting an imminent outcome where they get commission to bring in, and this is the 3,000 people who would come and there already reserved to stay with us. That they would mobilize some 3 hubs in India by charter flights. So it might take 4 or so weeks to mobilize them all in but that is a permission being sought. If not, they have to wait for whenever news, and I'm sure we're all waiting to hear that air travel is restored particularly from those sourced countries for the workforce of that. And then we would see them coming in maybe a little slower buildup because it would be commercial flights coming in to that. So that's one addition that's coming. We also have, as you know, various friendly forces, the Omani forces military involved. They have another exercise to do as a carryout with their Omani counterparts here as the host. That's happening in the latter part of the year. That's already also committed to come to us. So we're expecting about 6,000 more to come in. There will be about 1,500 going out as the EPC of the refinery contract comes to an end, that EPC 1 and EPC 2 need to ramp up by some 5,000. There's a major contract for another player who's already our customer in Duqm need another 1,200 people. All of this is constrained by the ability to fly people in and to get these visa for them at the moment. As soon as that changes, we will see a very good uptick. We have a separate from. So that deals with that, that's positive in terms of new people coming in. We have had challenges in Duqm. Our Chairman wrote about it in his statement this quarter where unfortunately, and I know we all see it around Oman, even though the government is very clear about its need for ILO standards, International Labor Organization standards of accommodation. The Ministry of Labor is very clear about it. Particularly in an area like Duqm, where in order to get foreign direct investment, in order to get international financing for projects, you have to demonstrate the ESG elements, including your ILO standards of worker welfare. So when people look at the facilities that we've built and the services that we provide, which will include, of course, medical, it will include recreation, it will include lifestyle, dignity of living, it will include all the correct ratios of minimum 4 square meters per person around each bed, ratios of ablution facilities to each individual, the scale of dining facilities in proportion to the people of -- it's all very clear spend. People can sometimes look at that and say, why are we giving such a high standard? And the answer is it's not. It is the minimum standard required by International Labor Organization, which, as you know, is a function of United Nations, to meet the minimum standards of worker welfare and to avoid the lower standards than that with no recreation, no communications with home, no proper medical facilities, proper sanitation. All of these things that are, if you like, aligned with the definitions of standards of modern slavery. And unfortunately, as we also know, there are some in Oman who go against the authorities, who go against the standard that the government wants to see and does continue to house people. This was brought into sharp relief of the first wave of COVID where the massive problem kicked on where some of these coworkers were crammed into apartments and residential accommodation in places like Muttrah and Ruwi and so on. And some of the less salubrious camps that have no other facility other than big dormitories as people crammed into them and so on. That's where the problems came up. And whereas we've been able to demonstrate that COVID inside our fence at Duqm significantly less. And I know the Chairman put that into his thing is being controlled far better by applying those minimum standards than when you compare it with the camps outside the Duqm. And so that's an issue. We see that there are several thousand people being looked after them below the standard who don't say they have to come to one, but they would come to us because if you look after people in smaller numbers, you cannot compete with our pricing. And so that's another challenge that we have. And the disappointment of that is that every night that goes past, there is a bed that is not used, that should and could be used while projects are at their peak, we're missing out on. So we're having quite a battle in Duqm around this subject. Very happy to say that there's not one of the either authorities or people in right places from OPAZ, to SEZAD, to OQ8, to Ministry of Labor, to His Excellency, the Wali, to the Duqm Municipality, 100% behind us. But it has not yet been sufficient to stamp this out. So that's the second area of opportunity for us beyond the new people who are coming in. There are also workforce available today who may -- some of these places have been shutdown and people forced into us. But it's not happening at the speed that we want and there are some contractors, and I don't wish to cast any aspersion on the good contractors who are housing their people with us. There are some who house people with us and have people in these other standards as well. But we're working with everyone to try and change this practice. It's a man needs Duqm other places to have the proper reputation that we have in the oil fields for the way people are looked after and that this is the standard. And as they proved in the oil fields, the actual intangible benefits of better safety performance, better productivity, lower attrition, lower downtime of sickness, ability to attract more Omanis and all of these very positive things is what you get when you apply the standard. People think they're doing the right thing by saving a few dollars. I mean there's one camp just outside the zone that's operated -- meant to be for the crusher that's just outside the zone. The standards are extremely poor, way below the minimum standards prescribed. And they are subletting beds, 500 basis below our price. And so people are still paying very close to what they're gaining by keeping people at these appalling standards is quite small in comparison to the benefits that they would get by looking after their people properly. And sorry, that's quite a long issue, but you've touched on something that we feel that our investor community needs to understand that we are being transparent. And yes, we're doing very well in Duqm, and we're very pleased about that. But we should be doing better because of this and we are doing everything we can to fight it. Those are the 2 areas that can change our occupancy overnight. Thank you.

So Sameer, you can go ahead and ask your question.

Actually, I have 2 questions. First on your SG&A expenses, which has been consistently declining and it is now 13% lower year-over-year. Any scope to decline further from the current quarterly run rate of OMR 1.3 million?

Sure, Sameer. Good point. And as we have been saying that we are really working on operational excellence, cost optimization, so some of the savings or major of these savings have come from there. However, some of the costs which are -- which could be deferred or not required under the current or circumstances are one-off kind of sales from. But if you really go for the majority of the savings that you can put in that category, which would be recurring in nature because of the cost optimization because of innovation, what we have done. And another portion would be that is not required now under the COVID times, but will come back when situation normalizes. And when we are saying that will come back. So once that cost comes back, then the revenue will also increase. So we are not concerned about that cost coming back when post-COVID erupts because that all is part contributing to the revenue. So really focusing on the cost optimization, operational excellence and innovation. And just want to add on 1 point, not only on SG&A, but even if you see the EBITDA margin, we are still holding up because last year, Q1 was pre-COVID and Q2 was post-COVID. In current year, both the quarters are in COVID. And despite we are able to maintain margin on one side. And on the other side, we are able to handle the cost increase in food items. The world over, when you look at the Bloomberg in debt, costs have gone up by 40%. But because of our supply chain, the size and the scale and how we negotiate with our suppliers, when we buy, we are still able to manage our cost to a great extent. And because of that, when you go and bid for contracts like MOH and other contracts, you have certainly that advantage. So one is on the G&A cost, operational excellence and one-off parts, which we avoided in COVID. And second is on all other direct costs also we are looking at in whatever savings we could bring in, Sameer.

Just to follow-up on that. Chairman's report is stating that you guys are looking to recruit more local employees and to invest in them. So how do that procedure or exercise would impact on your cost side? Would that be transferred to your clients as well?

So Steve, you take the recruitment process, and I will cover the cost part.

Yes, of course. Yes. In terms of recruitment, where we -- I'll start with the people who are working inside our projects and our operations, et cetera. Where we have cyclical contracts, obviously, each time we bid, we look at what the Omanization program would be. So for example, if you take the MOH bids that we've already discussed, the -- and these numbers are a matter of public record because they're posted at tender board. If you looked at the last one, our pricing for the 3 years was OMR 52.1 million. If I come to our alternative, the lower alternative where we're offering them a saving, it's OMR 61.9 million this time over the 3 years. Now a big chunk of that will be that we've looked at the Omanization program. We put it in and we plan to build that through. But that cost is recovered through there. The overall exercise that we're talking about in Renaissance 2.0 is about increasing our bench strength in our leadership team. We've got some greater Omani colleagues with us, but we're looking at succession planning and ideally for the top jobs that succession planning when the time comes, should be Omani. And so we've got a program that we will be attracting in 2 or 3 more colleagues. One of those is a direct vacancy that was already there and part of that. It's changed. A colleague who's moved on. And the other 2 about new assignments, but they're driving growth. One is a replacement for a colleague who is leaving in due course and the other is about driving new growth and new innovation. We are not taking any new awards for granted. But we've had a tremendous run this year of retention of all the contact tracks we've put up to recontest, discussed MOH's one, but BP and MEDC time will come up this year, and we've retained everything. But we're also in a good position on some potential new awards as well. So we're bringing in this additional bench strength not for the sake of it. This is about real jobs that real tasks that need to be committed -- occupied that will drive growth but will make sure that we've got more and more senior Omani colleagues with us, as we have at every level. We do this at every level of the company, but it's something that is not just a tag on of cost to run a program. It's not a cost program. It's about investment in the people that we have and the growth and the vision that we have going forward. And all the issues that are listed in that, the innovation, the digital, IT automation, it's about driving our future cost down and driving our service offerings and customer experience up.

Thanks, Steve. Just to add on to the cost element, Sameer. So we are looking at diversification. We are looking at new businesses, as Steve mentioned. So some of these talent when it will come, they will start looking at fresh eyes and they will start implementing what we are seeing huge potential post-COVID. So really keeping the resources ready because more and more opportunities will come for the outsourcing not only what we currently do, but what we -- more we are going to do that. So the cost element, we are not seeing a major impact when we look at the long-term point of view, but might be in the short term, you will see here and they are a little bit cost increase and decrease. But with all the efficiencies, we will be able to absorb it. Thanks, Sameer.

Yes. Sameer, let me just touch on what Vishal said there about diversification and new opportunities through outsourcing, et cetera. We are working very closely with some elements of government, though, of course, outsourcing is not restricted just to government. The major companies and institutions do the same. But where there will be coming to market, outsourcing of exactly the kind of services that we provide that are currently self-performed inside government. Now when it comes, we're helping get -- at certain parts, government get to that position and understand it, the -- we will then have to compete for it. So we won't win everything, but we will be in a strong position, as you know, our market leadership position in the services sector to be a strong contender when those things. There's a lot coming down the track in that regard. And I just want to touch on diversification. A couple of years ago, we weren't in waste management. We always say when you look at Renaissance and you want to know what business we're in. Since we used to say 1 group, 2 companies went before our Topaz divestment. Now we have 1 company, and it's contained in the single word of services. But inside that word of services, there's tremendous opportunity for diversification of the sectors we work in and the services we provide. We didn't -- we weren't doing any major waste management. We were doing waste collection in some projects because it's part of the project. We've now got our be'ah contract in Al Wusta. We've got the be'ah contract in this SEZAD zone, and we're now mobilizing the be'ah contract in the PDO concession area, which also includes waste site clearance as well as a new thing. That's not something we've done before. That's new in this particular. So even within waste, we diversify. There will be new opportunities for waste management, waste treatment all coming down the line. And we're aligning ourselves with the right talent inside the company as well as the right international technical expertise. We weren't in giving services to the utility sector until 4.5 years ago. And we're now looking at partnering where we have signed up as technical partners with Tata Power and currently active in an important tender for one of the utility companies. And the -- again, we won't win everything, but we're addressing a much larger market as we diversify these services. And so that's what Vishal is referring to. And I think by giving you those couple of illustrative examples, because it's so easy to think of us as catering and PACs and, which is a hugely important part of what we do, but our hard services, our operations and maintenance, waste management, et cetera, are really becoming an important part of our offering. Thank you.

And Sameer, again, when you venture into these diversifications, you also see the margins are keep improving in each of these diversification as well. Sameer, any further questions on your side?

That's it from my side.

Thank you, Sameer. [ Abbas ], please go ahead with your question.

A few of the questions that I have, have already been covered. But I'm just going to try and take it a little deeper. And let me know what the information you can share with us and what you can't. I was going through the Chairman's report and it was very interesting in the last couple of quarters, Mr. Fancy mentioned the word, transformational. In this quarter, you mentioned transformational to visibility when it comes to the new projects. Last quarter report, he also mentioned that the kind of opportunity you guys are looking at is going to be transformational for the company. Of course, and then he kind of broke it down into 3 projects this year. He spoke about, of course, the impact of COVID. And once that impact goes away, your profitability should probably go up. He spoke about the MOH contract, which you've given a very, very fair visibility on. And then he spoke about the Manazil project. And you mentioned in terms of what time lines we're looking at, of course. Now I just wanted to get some clarity. When I look at 2020 numbers, there's already some part of the PDO PAC that you guys are doing. You're not 100% the provider. But is it fair that the revenue and the profitability that we see at the parent company level, which is OMR 30 million revenue and a profit after tax of close to OMR 5.8 million, that's entirely the PDO PAC business that you're doing right now?

No Abbas. Abbas that is not the entire profitability from PDO PAC because the profitability comes from our Duqm, from our contract services. So we are happy to share with you that each of our businesses, whether it is in PDO PAC, Duqm and contract service sales, all are contributing to the bottom line. Each of our businesses are making money despite the COVID situation. So this bottom line is a contribution from each of the business sale, Abbas.

No, yes. So -- because I was trying to -- I mean, I know you guys don't give too much segment data. I mean in the sense that you do try to break down a little bit of Duqm. But as analysts, we were just trying to make sense of the numbers in the sense that, okay, today, Steve spoke about what sort of revenue that comes from PDO PAC. But because you have a parent company, Duqm is a part of a subsidiary. There's Tawoos that takes care of the catering and the facilities management. So at our level, we were just trying to dig a little deeper and try to understand what sort of revenue is coming from each segment. So the way we have looked at the business is the Duqm PAC, PDO PAC, the MOH contract services and the contract services ex MOH. So we try to put some numbers to this. I mean, firstly, are you in a position to sort of break it up for us in terms of what revenue and what EBITDA at these levels or you can't talk about it?

So difficult, Abbas, because of the confidentiality with each of these constituencies with the customers, with all the -- our various government agencies are our customers as well. So it is difficult to give that kind of the detail.

I'll tell you where I'm coming from. As analysts, and I'm sure as people in the market, you've noticed there's a lot of interest in Renaissance shares, volumes have picked up. And there's a lot of chatter regarding the Manazil project. Now of course, I know you can't comment on it unless the client tells you you've got the project or you don't. But if the project were to come your way, we'll have to try and make sense of the immediate impact is how does Renaissance benefit? What are the numbers? Because Renaissance already manages some portion of the PDO PAC. So there's going to be obviously a replacement for you guys in terms of revenue and profitability, and there's going to be a new sort of number, right? Because PDO looking at 30,000 beds. Now that is transformational. So we were just trying to see that what sort of revenue opportunity and profit opportunity comes your way if you do win this project? Because once the project comes, the market is going to try and make sense of the project. And right now, we don't really have the means to analyze this. So we've got Duqm numbers, thankfully because Duqm, you have sort of separated and you've mentioned how much revenue you have done. We know the net profit number at the Duqm level. But from the PDO PAC level, we don't really have much clarity. I mean I tried to break it down and I came to the conclusion and then you told me, it's not correct, is that the entire OMR 30 million revenue from 2020, at the parent company level was PDO PAC with the profitability of close to OMR 5.5 million? This is for the PDO PAC. Now I don't know if you can confirm that? But I'm trying to move forward from there to see what sort of opportunity does Manazil give Renaissance because it is going to be transformational from the way I'm looking at it.

Thanks, Abbas. On Manazil, we will discuss. But just to confirm that the profitability is a contribution from each of these businesses. Last year, our contract services made losses because of the major COVID impact. So last year was an aberration in that sense. But this year, first half 2021, each of these businesses have contributed. But let's discuss about Manazil in detail. Steve, over to you for Manazil.

Yes. So Abbas, and you're right. Thank you for caveating that I can't talk about the live tender in the detail. And in the event that we were successful to be awarded one of the two packages of Manazil, North or South, then we would be able to give you more color on that. Let me see if I can help you a little with you've pointed out about our PACs. Now we mentioned earlier, we've done about OMR 13.5 million at this half year. Normally, we'd have expected to do about OMR 15 million half year revenue, which is pure revenue. Now I can't talk about the other levels because then there's a matter of contract confidentiality with our clients in terms of what I share. But our PAC rates in the public domain and available to see. The -- you're right that we don't do 100%, but we've won 100% of the maximum that we could win in the sense that the original PACs you could win 1 of 2 in 2 locations, we did. The next, you could win 1 on 1 we did. The next one, you could win 1 of 2. And so we have 5 permanent PACs, and we have a TAC in Saih Rawl, which is a variation to the Qarn Alam one. So if you change our total beds, they're just under 8,500 beds in the PACs. And if you take 800 of those out for Saih Rawl, let me call it, 7,500 left roughly. So we -- there are, in total, about 14,500 PAC beds in the oil fields at the moment. After Manazil, there will be 30,000. So the new beds available of about 15,000 for the winners. Now it's possible in one of the options that the all 30,000 beds have to be provided new. And then we have provisions in our PAC contracts as to how we migrate from those into Manazil, et cetera, and we're compensated or that's one of the options. Another is that the PACs remain, and it's the delta that gets built. But what is actually happening with Manazil is the size of the market is doubling. And not only that size is it's being guaranteed through 20 years the end of the PDO concession of 2044. And that's presupposing that they don't renew their concession then. And remember, the -- and the occupancies actually even seem to be going to increase with the combination of the renewables plan going in through EDO into the oil field areas, et cetera. So that's the scale of the opportunity for us. And there is an occupancy guarantee in this particular project as well. So when we are able to talk about it, it becomes very bankable with that. And hopefully, we can give you more clarity. But just from the numbers I've given you, I hope you can get something out of that of scale, Abbas, and with our current rates and what would be happening with Manazil doubling it up.

Sure. No, I appreciate that. And good luck. I hope to see you guys win this.