Repay Holdings Corporation (RPAY) Earnings Call Transcript
November 15, 2022
Earnings Call Speaker Segments
Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for joining us for day 2 of Citi's FinTech Conference. My name is Andrew Schmidt on Citi's payments processors and IT services research team with a focus on fintech software. It's my pleasure for this session to host Repay. With us from Repay, we have John Morris, CEO and Co-Founder; and Tim Murphy, CFO. Thank you both for joining us. Really appreciate it.
Thanks for having us.
Nice to be here.
I think in these sessions, I always like to start with the level set in terms of what you do, what you -- how you define addressable market. Maybe we can start with just a high-level overview of the business as you see it and then we'll go from there.
Sure. So thank you again for being here. Thank you, guys. So if I look at our business, so we are really a payment processor that is embedded into various different ISVs or accounting softwares or loan management systems. And to kind of do a level set of our overall makeup, which we've said on our last call, was about 70% of our business is processing payments on behalf of consumer payments and about 20% of our business is processing payments on behalf of business payments. And then 10% is software and services, so around really our clearing settlement engine. Inside of our consumer payments business, about 50% of that is around loan repayments. And so that's where some type of financial obligation for a card payment or even a mortgage payment will be involved or even a personal loan payment. And then on the -- we have about 10% of our business is around what we call accounts receivable management, where there would be some type of an extension or a collection of a receivable collections, et cetera. And then about 10% of that is health care. And then as I said, the 20% of our overall business is business payments and 10% is overall software and services. That's a little bit about our overall business. We still see our growth is strong organically. So we were started in 2006. We started in the consumer payments piece of that. We've chosen these 2 large underserved verticals where the digital transformation is happening, even confirmed during the pandemic on the B2B side for sure. So we still see this large transformation point used to be how people paid with cash or check or even an ACH even into more of a card-based transaction, more of a real-time based transaction. So all of that is still exciting for us. We're still continuing to see that come through with new wins as well as existing penetration into existing customers, a great land grab still in the B2B space. And we're integrated and embedded into all these systems that kind of manage those workflows, as well as we actually truly do clear and settle funds around that.
A lot of good themes are integrated payments, B2B payments, very sticky. They're recurring verticals, which is great to see. Maybe just before we get into sort of the verticals at a more detailed level, maybe just a question that continues to recur from investors. And I think that question is on visibility. And I think last earnings call was very good and that sort of you showed some pretty good stability in terms of consumer lending verticals things like that. But I think people kind of asking what's the visibility for FY '23, especially given the macro context. Maybe you could just talk us through like the framework to think about sort of FY '23 growth in sort of a volatile macro backdrop?
Yes, sure. I'll take that. So we have a lot of visibility in the consumer space given that we -- a lot of the growth is coming from existing customers. So I'll just start there and that we think there's -- the verticals themselves are underpenetrated and underserved from a card processing perspective and from a payment processing perspective. And so they're just not as competitive, which allows us to have higher take rates and margins. And also there's a digital shift happening away from paper forms of payment to electronic. And that's really what we're doing is serving that need. And so we think there's a lot of visibility in consumer despite the macro, just given that most of the growth is coming from existing, we see customers -- we see customers growing. We see customers adopting more of our products and channels, which usually leads to more volume. And then in B2B payments, we are predominantly serving medium to enterprise-size customers versus SMBs. We think though that part of the market will be more resilient in a downturn. We don't think there's risk of companies going out of business. We're not sensitive to new business starts. And then in RCS, we see a lot -- we've just signed some large customers that are ramping throughout this year into next year. So we know we'll get a full 12 months of those. And we see a pretty full pipeline of customers that we could sign and start growing next year. So those are some underlying kind of drivers within our own business. And then from a framework perspective, we really don't see any macro scenario where we don't grow. We think in more of a mild recession, there's actually some potential benefits to us of stabilized lending verticals and increased need for our services as lenders are focused on reducing delinquencies. So in that scenario, we'll probably grow low to mid-teens. And then in more of a moderate recession, whether it's maybe some of those trends get a little bit worse and maybe the duration is longer, we still think we grow high single digits to low double digits. And even in a very severe downturn, which all those trends worsen and it's more prolonged, we think we still grow mid- to high single digits. So again, we don't really see a scenario where it starts to materially go worse or I think maybe the market has taken a view in some way that we would go negative or just massively decelerate into the end of this year. And I think for all these reasons, we're so clear about next year.
It's very helpful. Thank you for that. And I think if we just take a step back, and we think we will get into sort of what you're seeing in some of these verticals in a moment. But let me just take a step back when we think about the consumer loan repayments vertical. Maybe you could just talk about -- talk us through the value that you bring to a partner and why a verticalized solutions actually required. We have a lot of questions like, why can't anyone do this, Right? But why is a specific solution require?
Yes, so we started there back in our beginning, really, when we came into that world, it was really a very manual process world where we were kind of embedded technology from our very beginning. That's the market we were going that was not really even there. We helped create that. So we create -- we have our own gateway, so we have our own gateway, let me back up 1 step further than that. So if you are a financial institution, a lender that's also not a bank, you actually cannot process your own payments. You have to have someone like us to actually mature into the financial system, whether it be a card-based transaction, whether it be an ACH into the Fed or even in depositing checks, you've got to have someone like us to actually process those payments. So we've embedded into those loan systems that actually we've embedded our financial technology into those loan systems to do a few different things. One is to give them all of the alternative channels that we -- they want to be able to take a payment through on behalf of their consumer. They may white label our solution, so that we give them a web experience to accept those payments. They may use our IVR, they may use our text to pay, then they use maybe in our mobile app and maybe their CSR, maybe inside of their system, taking payments that ultimately is inside of our system. So we give them the security and the technology around really things like PCI that some people may not be familiar with on the card based side. So our ability to give them a single pane of glass to take all of those payments. So any kind of payment modality, you have to use someone like us to actually accept that, and we can process all of those. And then we can process those seamlessly inside of their system and back from a reconciliation perspective inside of that. We move the funds behind the scenes and deposit that back to them like a traditional and even an e-commerce world to do. So we've embedded into that vertically specific. And each vertical has its own loan management system software that drives that. So without those integrations, it's difficult to actually go in and get a new client win inside of that. And specifically on the loan repayment side, most all of those are generally vertically focused software platforms themselves, like mortgage would be vertically focused like white knight would be more around mortgage. So the auto lending software are generally around auto lending. So that in itself is vertically focused. And then a lot of those systems are not always API first, meaning that they have to code to us, so that in itself has a natural barrier to entry to it. And if you think about we're tokenizing a lot of their payment modalities. So because we're giving them that security of protecting that payment PII information, that gives them -- gives us even more ability to -- they have to ingest that into their system. So those are kind of the stickiness point of that. And -- but then we have a great value proposition in that. We're helping them get paid. And obviously, we have a saying of the ability to pay anywhere, any way, any time, gets you paid more often, and it really does. And we give them all those features and functionalities as well as payment modalities to do that.
Got it. That's helpful. And if we take it 1 step further and you think you were alluding to this in terms of the benefit. So I think it's more a level set what a process is like for a lender in terms of like traditional acceptance, whether it's check, which still happens a lot in ACH versus card where card brings an equation for loan repayments.
Yes. So on the old repayment side, overall, the consumer wants a real-time transaction. Think about it. I mean you want to know that something happened and it happened automatically. On the loan repayment side, consumers love the debit card feature because it's instant, it's automatic. And there's no negative consequence if somehow and other funds are not there. just a client versus an ACH or a check. You don't know exactly when it's actually going to clear the financial system and you don't know what order it's going to create the financial system. So the consumer wants the real-time nature 24/7. That's when they love the part of that. And on loan repayment side, it's going to be a debit card, not necessarily a credit card. So it's really out of their bank account real time.
Got it. And then maybe before we talk a little bit more about just payments penetration, just current trends that you're seeing in terms of just sort of repayment volumes and things like that in the current environment across auto, personal loans and things like that?
Yes. I mean I think they're similar to what we talked about on our Q2 -- after our Q2 call, and there was some concern about increasing delinquencies, which led to reduced originations in the personal loan space. I think that generally has continued. It hasn't necessarily got any worse and similar concept in auto. But we do see strong demand still, particularly in personal loans. And the demand from the consumer is probably the most important factor. That leads to origination activity and we do think eventually delinquencies will normalize and start to reverse, in which case, originations would pick up as lenders loosen their credit standards. But the key factor there is demand for those loans, which we think still ties to be strong. And so the strong demand is what gives us a lot of confidence in visibility not only into '23, but beyond, because that's the most important factor in the equation in the personal loan side.
Yes. That makes sense.
One other thing we're seeing, obviously, we're talking about historical delinquency rate. And also -- so everyone that may not know our story is, we're a processor of payments. We have no balance sheet risk when it comes to the lending side of the world. We're just merely moving funds on their behalf and they're using our technology. So delinquencies could potentially, at some point, reduce volume, but it's still a small relative to we're not taking a full loss associated with that as a percentage of a payment. But we -- one of the things we do -- one advantage we do have is our dialogue has increased as they begin to focus more and more on their operations, more and more on the repayments versus just all about lending, lending, lending. The need for all of our payment tools has become even more of a dialogue with our lenders and our clients, existing as well as new. And really the concept of debit card for delinquencies when people have someone on the phone and they haven't met a financial obligation or they then set that up, more and more want to set it up as a debit card.
And what is the payments penetration across the verticals? I know it's hard to observe externally. Just what do you estimate is the carded penetration, I guess, across different verticals?
Yes. I mean it varies a lot by vertical. But in -- I'd say in personal loans, it's probably high teens to 20% and then it moves up into auto [indiscernible], consumer health care payments probably around 50%. All these consumer-driven payments, though, it's all relative to the overall U.S. consumer payment market, which is probably 70% penetrated. So even in our most penetrated vertical, which is consumer health care, it's 50, which is still a big disconnect from the 70 and a lot of penetration left and down into personal loans, which may be 20% on card relative to the 70%. So a huge opportunity for penetration in personal. And then on the B2B side, in mortgage for a B2B mortgage is probably less than 10%. Mortgage is largely ACH driven, not a lot of card as a big opportunity there, I think, to increase card acceptance within mortgage. And then in B2B, it's probably somewhere in the 10% to 15% range on card AR or and in AP, it kind of depends on which verticals you serve. But either way, still a very, very low penetration rate relative to the overall market.
So what drives that low penetration rate in personal loans? Is it nature of the customer? Is it the actual lender? What drives that? Because it seems pretty significant loan, a big opportunity.
I just think they've been slower to adopt electronic payment technology when we first -- when John founded the company, we first started, it was still all paper. They hadn't really even moved to ACH at that point. So the electronic shift happened away from cash and check to ACH and that kind of was the trend and the theme for a while, and then it started moving to card, but I think they've just generally been slow to adopt payment technology. Now that the consumer has caught up and the consumer is demanding a high-quality payment experience, they're now being forced to move to better payment technology and specifically card, which is real time. And that's the trend that we're writing.
You've heard me say this before, some of you as well, so the consumer e-commerce experience was superior. If you think about it, it was forced all of us are consumers and now we can click, click on our phone and have something to deliver charge or same day, right, your physical good. So the e-commerce experience on that side is really high quality. We're now helping deliver that to the lending side of the world, which is some of the new entrants in the world are doing some of those things. But we've been doing this -- people -- business with people who have been in around for just the 50s, right? And so there -- as they're upgrading their standards -- even like credit union, we do business with credit needs. They're really bringing them great financial technology that the consumer is expecting that's a great value for us. But then they need also the ability for us to do this one. So we see that experience where we could probably never spend the millions of dollars to change consumer behavior. It's changed and the expectation has changed both on the consumer payment side of the world, but on the business payment side of the world, we as consumers have all gone back to the office and say, why don't we write checks anymore. And so the pay invoices, all of those things are the pull forward there and the conversation is that kind of layer that just underserved markets on top of, do we think there's growth -- there's a great amount of opportunity there. Both -- in all the areas we operate, it's all there. The macro world is real. But if you still look at an enormous wave that we just have to do about part, maybe we do well.
Yes. Yes, it's a good place to be for sure. And you move to the dialogue kind of stepping up as more lenders or technology providers look to sort of improve their collection mechanism. What does the pipeline look like relatively speaking. If you think about today versus maybe 6 to 12 months ago on the -- from the loan repayment side, have you seen pretty good demand in terms of pipe. And it sounds like your bookings have actually been really very good. It's ending FY '23 [indiscernible] demand side.
So a great opportunity for growth for us is really everything we sell this past year, most of that gets implemented, we'll get a full 12 months next year. That's what we love -- that's what I love about the recurring nature of the business. So those implementation pipelines will come online, and many of those are. But -- and then our new sales pipelines are there as well. As we said, we had a very large win in the third quarter, end of the third quarter, it actually come on -- that was as meaningful to us, that should come on board in the first part of 2023, that in itself. So what that tells us is a few different boxes that we checked. First of all, it's very large. The other part of that is they are using almost all of our payment channels, IVR, text, mobile and CSR. So they've been using a lot of all of our channels and then they're using our instant funding product to fund loans and then they're using most all of our modalities. So ACH, card, even our digital wallets. So that's really good long term as we kind of look at the longevity of that client base.
It's actually a good point. You have more products and given the move towards sort of electrification maybe you see more platform buying in sort of larger revenue opportunities because you have more things, which is great...
And on the lending side, these are also -- these are companies that have been around for a long time. They have established businesses, they have established lending relationships with consumers, but also with their financial institutions or how they borrow money, et cetera. So it's used to seeing some things. The other backdrop of the macro world is the job market. I realize the macro will change some of that. But the job market is still the best we've seen ages my professional career. And then the consumer, for the most part, is in great financial shape, right? It's not like the last Great Recession.
Yes. No, that makes sense. Maybe you could just, before we move on to B2B, just thinking on the consumer loans, just talk about the distribution here and how it's evolved. A big part, as you mentioned, is kind of integration into sort of loan management systems and things like that, which is really sticky sort of recurring sort of distribution opportunity. Do you want to talk about kind of whether it's direct sales on the captive auto side or whether it's sort of ISV relationships, how distribution has changed?
So we have about 236 ISV relationships. Those are kind of what we call software partners. Those are the software partners that will be these loan management systems, kind of system of record on the Consumer side. So about 85 of those are on the business payment side. And those will probably most likely be more of an accounting ERP system, like I say, like Acumatica. And the rest of those will be on the consumer payment side, will be some type of loan system dealer management system. Those are partners. So those are not -- so in our world, we're direct go to market. So we are always going into owning the client relationship. Those are partners of ours. They would be referral partners for us versus resellers. So we actually do all the selling. We need to do all the servicing that we do partner with them. We do share in some economics when they're partner with us. But for the most part, we do all the direct sales there. And that's how we actually were able to just continue to drive sales. We continued adding to that. You were started talking to you, we were roughly, I don't know, maybe less than 100. And so inside of that, the opportunity inside of just those existing relationships are exponential as well. We don't do business with many of those software partners clients. And our ability to drive additional throughput there. Some of the things we're doing on our integrations as we're adding new product features and functionalities. There's a lot of got to haves there. And as we add those got to haves, meaning the end client of theirs has to have it. It's really going to open up new true organic growth inside of existing clients as well as new wins. I just want to -- we'll see we're really investing in some of that now. It will pay dividends at some point in '23 and beyond as we add more and more of our products and throughput all the way down to those software relationships.
It's one thing I don't think we talk about a lot. We talk about new wins, but we don't talk about the opportunity for cross-sell. Maybe you can talk about that in terms of whether it's instant funding or other products, what's the most potential in terms of existing client cross-sell opportunities?
Probably AP, the AP automation side. Really even -- so we see that on the AR, AP side on the business payment side of the world. But we actually think that for some of our large clients over here on the consumer payments that are consumer payment lenders. I mean I'm just thinking of 2 or 3 very large that do not outsource it at all. So our ability to cross-sell that just in our existing long client relationships. In times when people are trying to really watch the financials even more, it just opens up that conversation for us. So I would expect us to do a little bit better job on the cross-sell side of -- into the consumer payment piece of that. There is an enterprise level to it. I mean we don't necessarily do SMBs for that. But the AP automation side, I've been in payments for 30-plus years, it's the best value proposition I've seen in payments in a long time. So if you think about it, payroll used to be done in-house, maybe I'm just old. And so now it's fully outsourced. If you think most people don't process their own payroll, especially you think of multistate scenario. That's normal. It's all outsourced. That used to be the biggest payable. All the rest of the payables, if you include cost of goods sold, all the rest of the payables is the opportunity to automate all of that. And we can do that, and the world is kind of opening up to -- and our total pay solution is not just do we do the virtual card part of that. And we do -- we pay everything, signature, your other payables, we'll automate all those. And the value proposition is -- the value alone is this is automating along and giving you that single pane of glass, and you can follow that invoice through its entire payment cycle, whatever modality that is, whether it be virtual card, check, ACH. The other side of that is for everything is a virtual card, we're going to give you. So we can outsource all of that and actually give you a credit for something you would pay for just to outsource, but now we're going to give you a credit for that. So it's a great value proposition. And we see that it's a land grab, the efficiencies, the markets getting -- remember that consumer is also an AP clerk saying, why don't we do this the old way. We increase automation there. That's going to continue to happen.
Yes. I agree. B2B payments has been a focus at the conference and just to consider it one of the more interesting growth there is fintech, I think it's super interesting opportunity.
But one of the few that does both. So we do both consumer and B2B, but then in B2B, we do both AR and AP. So the cross-sell started by selling AP into the existing AR customers in B2B. And like John said, we've now extended that into the consumer space. So we have a large lender that does both online lending and branch-based lending and they have 300 or 400 branch locations, they have a lot of payables. And so we're selling that now actively into the consumer base. That's something that we just really picked up in the last 6 months.
Yes, it's a good opportunity. Is that primarily within auto? Or are there other verticals as well?
Personal loans, smaller loans, auto loans, anywhere we see there's a potential for a lot of payables.
Maybe you take a step back and John, you did a good job outlining the opportunity within B2B payments and where you play within AP. But what are the primary verticals, their focus? And is there opportunity for vertical expansion? And so how do you do that?
Yes, sure. So we got Consumer payments, business payments. Inside of that, we break down into vertical -- and you could say that's a lot to do with me. I've always been big on this vertical expertise both on the vertical itself, meaning, say mortgage is unique, right? It's still a servicing payment, still just like your car payment from that perspective. But are 2 different types of verticals. One is even more regulated. So we're vertically specific underneath the consumer. We're vertically specific as well underneath B2B. So for example, hospitals is a vertical. That's a different decision, that's a different way of doing business. Still you're paying their payables, those things don't really change. But your approach to the market, your vertical expertise, who you're interacting with, them knowing that you really understand their market. The decision makers get that. It seems like auto inside of B2B. The back office of our auto dealership understanding and the networking effect, specifically in the B2B space, we're pushing 150,000 in our building network. That drives that automation as well. So now we've recognized as you drive out in [indiscernible] auto, if you, long word there. But if you look at auto and you see -- once you start touching all the suppliers to that networking effect now for every net new, you already see all big vendors. And so the exponential effect is there. And that's why we also like the vertical specific part of that. Adding a new vertical, we see that. Most of the time, we're going to -- there's a lot of different attributes we look for in that. So we -- we're fairly new into -- we're doing some things in hospitality. We're doing some things in government [indiscernible] some things in government. We kind of balance some of those with the sales cycles and sell sequences, so we can continuously -- some of those have longer cycles. So that has a little bit to do with it as we have a new vertical, so we won't overweight and want something that has a long sales cycle to it. But the need is still there. Like for example, the consumer side, credit unions has a great need there, but they do have a little bit longer sales cycle.
Sure. And as we think about just building a network, I think just talking to others, it seems like supplier enablement is super important. So maybe you can talk about the process for supplier enablement and how that supports sort of the [indiscernible] expansion?
Yes. So I mean the key is to continue to add vendors to the network, but then you want to have a network that's enabled to accept the electronic payments and specifically accept virtual cards. And so there is a whole process that goes in a whole team of people that goes into vendor enablement. And a lot of companies, a lot of our peers will outsource that function. We don't do that. We do it ourselves, and we find that what we would think of as real-time enablement is probably the most effective tool. So for example, if we're calling on behalf of a hospital customer to one of their vendors to make a payment, we often will call them when we actually have the payment ready to send and say, well, you accept the virtual card, and if so, you'll get paid before we get off the phone. That -- doing that is more likely to result in them accepting the virtual card payment than it is if we just send an e-mail with no specific details, no time constraints and no additional information. So that real-time enablement that we do in-house enables the vendor network to have a higher penetration rate of electronic payments and specifically higher penetration of virtual cards. And the reason why we want that is because virtual cards have the best unit economics of all the different payment types within Repay.
Sure. So the other part to that as well is we're medium to enterprise level. And it's difficult to do that on the SMB side, right? Because it's a much smaller subset. So that world has to be way more automated and less touching, more self-servicing and specifically, we can see the level we're touching. I think that, again, it's a giant land grab still, and we're going to continue to build out our network. We've grown that significantly since we started doing that. We'll continue to push on that.
Got it. And then maybe just a numbers or a longer-term framework question probably pointing more towards Tim. But just remind us the sort of the longer-term growth you have margin characteristics for the business and whether that change over time. I think over the last couple of years, there's been a lot of volatility with stimulus, COVID, coming out of this, we're going into [indiscernible] . But has the longer-term sort of framework for growth and profitability changed in your mind?
I don't think it's changed too materially. I mean we've even during these -- during COVID and this past year, we've been growing low to mid-teens organically, higher than that with some of the M&A we've done for all the reasons we've been discussing. In a mild recession scenario, we think that could continue. We're not going to necessarily say what type of recession we think will happen. But we've laid out the framework for what that could put a range of outcomes. So I think that, that's still achievable. And then gross profit margins have been expanding slightly. We're kind of have an operating philosophy of always negotiating with our vendors to reduce costs as we add volume. So I think we've seen gross profit margin expansion. I'm not going to say that that's going to continue at the same pace, but I think keeping margins -- gross profit margins where they are or slightly up, makes sense. And then -- we do -- we do have healthy adjusted EBITDA margins. We don't want to see those expand. I think we want to reinvest incremental gross profit dollars and growth in things like hiring sales and marketing and partnership folks within AP, just go address that massive underpenetrated opportunity. So I think we would basically look at adjusted EBIT margins flat to maybe a little bit down just to reinvest for faster growth.
Got it. Okay. Maybe just a big picture sort of close our question and whether you have any closing remarks, feel free to fit them in as well. But maybe you could talk about just the longer-term vision for the Repay platform. Done a great job, in terms of investing in areas that have been underpenetrated over time. It's the right way to think about sort of as you think about it, just the longer-term vision for the...
I see us being a network to all networks than new funds. And if you're in the U.S. and Canada, you have to have someone like us to do that. I see us embedded into the systems that actually manage the workflows of any business. We've, actually, just continued to be vertically focused and add those additional verticals to that. The ones we're in have long runways to them. We just need to execute. If you look at it, were at a $5-plus trillion TAM on the markets we touch today. We just have to get our fair share, and we can exponentially grow. I guess there's a macro backdrop, but you asked me long term. And so that is what I have discovered, I am the long -- I've discovered I'm the longest few shareholders out there of Repay. That's okay. Because I use that opportunity though. I've been in payments for a long time. I see the automation. It's timing is there to be able to create that value. The value to the actual client is there. It's hard to sell someone something they don't need. The need is there. The automation is there, the technology is ready for that. So I see us being a network to all networks, and that's going to have some new flavors to it. As I look out for the next 5 years, what's in that digital wallet may be a little bit different. It -- could it be crypto, crypto is not necessarily it's got different flavors, right? I mean, if you have something in your digital wallet, as an enterprise-level customer, that's a one-for-one. We can -- so you're still going to need someone to move that around and someone that truly understands the money movement flow. And if you can -- people are still going to have invoices, they may be electronic. They're going to be consumer invoices. There are going to be business invoices, our ability to expand on that and be a network whichever way that's going to move. It's going to be more digital. We're going to be really well positioned. If you see that single pane of glass. So checks are still here. Amazingly, cash is still here. So those aren't exactly going away in certain verticals out there, but even more the need for someone who can do all of those, and that's going to be us. And the ability to do that well, move funds around as well as being fully embedded into their systems. So easy reconciliation is there to speed up. I see the speed of money moving faster. Our funds moving faster and the ability to do that in a fully reconciled way. I see a great opportunity. I see some more opportunity on some networking effects there. We're starting to do a few things out there on the -- we're building our network on the vendor side of that, but there's some other opportunities to do some things out there as I look further out. I won't over share. But then on the -- example might be on the consumer side, we launched service transfer exchange, where we have several mortgage servicers coming together where we're going to allow them to service -- to exchange mortgage payments with each other. So example, none of us -- if you've ever gotten a mortgage, you pay 1 payment to this one and then never pay that person again, it's somewhere else. Those orphan payments kind of floating around the number of touches you have to have on how you regulate the transaction. So that opportunity, that network effect does exist out there and so it excites me to see when you got those secular tailwinds and you've got the technology to deliver it, yes, there are macro ups and downs out there, but it's still a great need for the solution. And so you have -- you really have a tailwind behind you. And that's what I said. Fascinated.
I look forward to watching the stories for. Thank you. Thank you, John. Thank you, Tim. Thank you, everyone, for joining us. I appreciate the time.
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