Safaricom PLC (SCOM) Earnings Call Transcript
November 9, 2020
Earnings Call Speaker Segments
Good morning, good afternoon or good evening, depending on where you're joining us from. Welcome to the Safaricom Half Year '21 Results Conference Call. Before I hand over to Peter Ndegwa, our CEO, I would like to request that you submit your questions to the panelists using the Q&A tool or platform, which is available at the bottom of your screen. I would also like to request that you read the disclaimer on Page 2 of our investor presentation available on the Safaricom website. I will now hand over to Peter.
Thank you, Cyndia. Just to confirm that you can hear me well before I start.
Yes. I can hear you, Peter.
Okay. Good afternoon, good morning, everyone, depending on where you are calling from, and welcome to the Safaricom H1 F '21 investor conference call. I will just say a few words. You'll have seen that our results would have been uploaded this morning, and you'll have seen the recording of our results. If you have not watched it, you can watch it. I wanted to start by acknowledging the presence of my exco, starting with our newest kid on the block, who is Dilip, joining us as CFO from the 1st of November. Dilip joins us from DTAC, which is the largest telecommunications company in Thailand. He has over 29 years experience, started his career in Coke and then went on to work for Vodafone India and then joined the DTAC Group, starting in Bangladesh and then later in Thailand. We are delighted to be welcoming Dilip to the Safaricom family as CFO, and I'm looking forward to working with him as we take this business to even new heights. I want to thank Ilanna, who many of you know, for the period that she has acted, held the fort, in the past few months since Sateesh moved on to a new role. Ilanna has done a great job and will be speaking to us as acting CFO and will continue to be with us for the next few months as we transition to delivering the new CFO. I also want to invite -- I mean to also acknowledge that some of my exco on the -- online: Sylvia Mulinge, who is our customer -- Chief Customer Officer; Steve Chege, who is our Chief Corporate Affairs Officer; Rita Okuthe, who is our Chief Enterprise Business Officer; and Sitoyo, who is -- who looks after Financial Services; but we also have Debra Mallowah, who is our Business Development Head. And all of them will be involved in the Q&A, depending on the questions that you have. I will now hand over to Ilanna to highlight a few elements related to the results that we announced today, and then we will get straight into Q&A. Ilanna, over to you.
Thanks. Thank you, Peter. Hello, everyone. Thanks for taking the time to join us here this afternoon. As I'm sure you've seen from our earnings release this morning, I'm not going to go into too much detail. I'll leave as much time as possible for Q&A, so I will just give some highlights. Our service revenue declined 4.8% in the period, and EBIT declined 10.5%. The impact -- this was driven by the impact of our response to COVID-19 and in zero-rating M-PESA transactions. And just to call out, that excluding M-PESA, our service revenue would have grown marginally in the period. Voice and fixed enterprise were under significant pressure in quarter 1. We did see this improve in quarter 2. Mobile data and fixed performed -- Fibre to Home performed very well for the period. And the overall underlying health of our business and as is visible from our growth in our customers across all revenue streams have also grown in usage. We did see a good momentum in quarter 2 performance with an easing of restrictions, opening up of the economy and some innovations from our commercial teams, which we mentioned this morning. Our service revenue grew 8.3% quarter-on-quarter in quarter 2. And this growth was largely seen across all our main revenue lines, and we've got momentum there going into half 2. And we achieved good cost savings, which helped alleviate some of the pressure on contribution margin, but we weren't able to cover the impact from free fees, hence the profit at the time. And we also saw some behavioral shifts in the period of M-PESA commissions actually growing in the period driven by deposits, which put further pressure on the P&L, but we do believe is potentially a good behavioral change that will stand to us in the future. So I think with that, I'll hand back to Peter for any further remarks before we go into Q&A.
Thank you, Ilanna. I do not intend to go into any further comments, just to invite -- for us to go into a Q&A -- the Q&A session. Cyndia, are you the one who is moderating the Q&A?
Yes, Peter, I'll moderate the Q&A. So we already have our first question. This is from Samuel Njihia of Faida Investment Bank. So I think it's more of a financial question. There was an increase in provisioning for receivables. What led to this? And what do these receivables relate to?
Ilanna, I'll hand over to you.
Thank you. So yes, overall, receivables increased versus March. 2 main drivers: first, repayments to do with the timing of communication authority invoicing that happens every year that should unwind as we move through to half 2; the second, relating to trade debtors, we did see an increase in trade debtors, most notably, interconnecting and colocation, which gave rise to the increase in receivables balance. And we are working with the parties locally in terms of a way to unwind the debt. You can also see it in the provision that we have made in the period. We have, I suppose, been prudent via our commissioning in the period. More from the point of view of kind of prudence from an ordering point of view than anything, we're actually conservative from a repayment point of view, but we do see an increase in interconnecting and colocation debt on the repayment element that will unwind in the half.
Thank you, Ilanna. Our next question comes from Linet from Absa Kenya. Kindly unpack why short-term borrowings went up significantly in H1. Where do we see net debt at in full year '21, '22?
Ilanna, please?
Yes. Thanks, Linet. So yes, short-term borrowings did increase in half 1. We're showing a net debt position. So to fund -- so we use pretty much our cash to fund early payment of dividend, so the borrowings are there just to support our working capital commitments, including CapEx. And in terms of full year position, and if we exclude the potential investments in Ethiopia, we should close with a net cash position. The loan that's taken in half year is a time -- more important from a timing point of view to facilitate the earlier payment of dividends to enable us to meet our working capital commitment.
Thank you, Ilanna. The next question comes from [ Fred Tilling Smith ]. Please, can you give an update on your expected timing around reintroduction of fees on M-PESA transactions?
Thank you for that question. I'll take that. As you know, just in terms of history, we offered to go with free P2P from mid-March to support the country. We have supported the country for 6 months now, 7 months, and it has cost us KES 9 billion for H1. We are not in a position to say when we will go back to charging. We do know that we will go back to charging at some point. We are not in a position to announce that. When we are ready to do that, we will come back to you and announce that. We have also been closely in touch with the Central Bank during this period. And we are working together to make sure that we have a position that is fully aligned between ourselves and them. But as I said, I wanted to reinforce that we went through -- we went with this direction to support the country during this period, to support a cashless environment but also to cushion Kenyans during this period. Kenyans are aware it's not going to be there -- the 3 transactions are not going to be there forever. But at this stage, we are not in a position to say when we will stop -- when we will go back to charging.
Thank you, Peter. Danesh, I believe Peter has responded to your question as well. So I will move on to [ Willis' ] question. This is regarding Ethiopia. How soon should we expect operations and revenues from Ethiopia?
Is that a question from Linet? Did you say that?
From [ Willis ], from [ Willis ].
From [ Willis ], yes. So thank you, thank you, [ Willis ]. I should say that it's -- our intention to invest in Ethiopia is a long-term play. It's not to generate near-term revenue. Just to indicate where we are, we submitted an expression of interest some months back. We are about to submit a bid, although we are waiting for the time to come through from the Ethiopian government, which had been delayed. We expect those, what they call ITT, which is the time that allows us what to bid for to come through in the next 30 days, and we are required to submit a bid within 30 to 40 to 40 days thereafter. Our intention is to go with a consortium. Safaricom will be the lead with approximately 51%. Of course, we will be sensible in terms of the kind of bid we have in terms of returns to shareholders, our ability to fund any investment that we make. There's challenges in terms of whether mobile money will be included and what time frame that would be. However, all I can assure you is that the Board will consider the overall bid in the context of ensuring that shareholder value is protected. We do not believe that dividends -- ability to pay dividends will be impacted by an investment in Ethiopia. But I do need to say that, at this stage, we do not have a view as to -- or we are not in a position in terms of the time profiles or indeed the debt levels that we would have to put on the balance sheet to be able to navigate our way through the bid. But when that is ready, we'll be able to share. We are waiting for the ITTs for us to be able to respond. And we'll seek the relevant approvals, both in terms of the Board itself and when the time comes from the regulatory authorities, but also our shareholders. I'll leave it there, unless there is any further question on Ethiopia. But just one more. Ethiopia is going to be a strategic investment. As I said at the beginning, it's a long-term play. We hope that even if we went in with a pure telecom license, that a mobile money license would then be allowed within the relative short period of time. That is 2 to 3 years, which is what the government has messaged. Because long-term, we believe that we will get an appropriate return if we combine a telecom operation with a mobile money operation.
Thank you, Peter. I believe that also responds to [ Donatas' ] question. I think we can then move to Silha's question. Ilanna, this is a follow-up on the short-term borrowings. Any detail on duration or cost of debt, please?
Yes, thanks. Hi, Silha. I hope you can hear me. Sorry, my Internet went funny there.
Yes, we can.
And yes. So Silha, I don't think we're going to get into the details of the cost of debt. I think I mentioned it earlier, but apologies if it wasn't very clear. The debt is purely timing, so it will be repaid within this financial year. Now obviously, if we're successful with the bid in Ethiopia, there will be additional debt taken on our balance sheet. But to put -- the fact you have encased the question as coming from one of worry, our net debt-to-EBITDA ratio at half 1 was 0.27, which compares very favorably. If you compare to say like a Vodafone, they would operate at 3x EBITDA. So our balance sheet is very underleveraged, undergeared from the point of view of sustainability, but the funding that we took in half 1 was to facilitate kind of timing of working capital commitments and would be repaid by end of year.
Can I add to that, Ilanna? I hope that the shareholders and investors are not going to complain with us paying dividends, Silha, because one of the reasons why we went for a bit of additional funding is to fund working capital for other projects, including CapEx, as Ilanna has mentioned, to enable us to use our free cash flows to be able to pay dividends, which we paid a few months earlier than normal. And it was a recognition of the fact that it was an unusual year. Of course, going forward, we are going to go back to the normal timing in terms of paying dividends. But certainly, if we hadn't paid dividends earlier, we would not have been constrained. So it's a purely timing issue, is a short-term matter that should net -- I mean, should watch itself by the end of the year, as Ilanna has messaged.
Thank you, Peter. We have a question from Ali Al-Nasser. He says, thanks for the call. I was under the impression that the deadline for zero-rating was December 31. Are you now suggesting that zero-rating can be -- can extend beyond this deadline?
No, no. But we're not suggesting anything like that. I'm just stating that we are not in a position to make an announcement of when we will go back to charging. We do think that we will go back to charging at some point relatively soon. I do not want to commit to a date, whether that is December, Ali, or later. But in not committing, it doesn't mean that we think that the deadline will move beyond December. One of the things we are sensitive about, we do not want to discuss matters that we may be having in the background with regulatory authorities at this stage. But I would want -- I would not want anyone to read in us not committing to a date, that we think this date will shift beyond December.
Thank you, Peter. So we have a follow-up question from [ Fred Tilling ]. Your customer churn rate has increased to above 30% from around 20% last year. Please give some insights around why this has moved up.
Yes. The advantage of having a great team is that you can delegate some of the questions. So I will ask Sylvia Mulinge, who looks after customer -- our consumer business, but also a Chief Customer Officer, to answer the question on churn.
Hello. Good afternoon, good morning from wherever you're looking in. Yes, our churn did go up in half 1, but that was a deliberate effort that we have put in, in terms of cleaning up the fraudulent registrations on our network. We had quite a bit coming through during the COVID period. And we have spent the first half of the year cleaning that up. So if you look at the underlying churn, that's within control. It's still within the 20% range. But we've taken strict measures in terms of cleaning out all the fraudulent registrations that had happened. So that has shown up. It should stabilize by the time we're exiting this quarter and we get back into the normal range of performance that we've always had in the past. So under control.
Thank you, Sylvia. So we'll move on to Sunil's question. He has 3 questions. The first one is can you please explain the one-offs in the EBIT line? And then what trends are you seeing in the last 3 months? And finally, how should we be thinking about service revenue growth rates?
Thanks, Sunil, for the question. So the one-offs, the nature of provisions that are taken in one period bid that maybe then get released in another period, I'll give you an example. In last year, we took a provision against possible liability with the KRA relating to [ AYE ]. We successfully closed the issue with them so we released that provision we've created last year this year. I think there will always be kind of ups and downs. It was more to call out or caution investors that we didn't want you seeing that 10.6% OpEx reduction and expecting the same in the second half of the year, when we knew that part of that was being driven by one-offs that wouldn't recur. I think the other way to look at it is that there are additional one-off impacts in the period, both in the zero-rating of our past transactions, the increase we've seen in the bad debt provision then, so the kind of the way we looked at that were just ones we were trying to find a way to cover the impact of increasing our bad debt provision. One of the ways that we did that was to try and close debt on any provisions that were sitting on the balance sheet that we thought maybe could be closed to release back into the P&L, so one could offset the other. I think there was 2 other questions. What trends are you seeing in the last few months? I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to. If it is service revenue, so we've got like -- the results we're looking at are up to the end of September. So we really only have October and a week of November to go on. October is looking good as in we are continuing to see the momentum that we saw in quarter 2 as carrying return into half 2, which is we're pleased about. I think I'll be cautioned to predict kind of service revenue growth rates, to your last point. I mean at the moment, things are going quite well. But as you see across Europe, in the U.S., the number of cases spiking, countries across Europe going into second-round lockdowns, if that was to happen in Kenya, it would impact our service revenue performance. So it's very hard to predict at this point. I think all else being equal, the kind of performance we saw in quarter 2 should continue, but it would be difficult to say with surety with all -- I mean, with a lot of unknowns going on with COVID around the world.
Probably, Ilanna, let me add a couple of points to what Ilanna has spoken to. In terms of the data -- on the data business, as we said in our results announcement, we have seen momentum. So we do expect that all the key drivers of penetration will continue. Our 4G coverage is improving. We are putting more 4G funds out there. And also, on the fiber side, both in terms of Fibre to Home and Fibre to Business, we are seeing some momentum. So on the data side, all the indications, both in terms of days of use, the amount, the MBs used or GBs used, is going in the right direction. Now on the voice side, we had a tough Q1. We saw a recovery in Q2. We've started going after one-to-one marketing, and Sylvia can speak a bit briefly on that. We're giving slightly more value. We've seen improvement in terms of number of minutes used, days of use, but also -- so you've seen the right trajectory in Q2. So voice is also looking reasonably stable. You know voice has been affected in the past, had been under pressure. We expect that to continue to be the case, and therefore we are looking to see how we can give value -- more value to customers in the end, but still retain -- but still do well on the ARPU. On M-PESA, we have seen very good underlying health of M-PESA. So customer numbers are up, transactions are up. Wallet size is up. Our execution is much better. We've improved the number of products out there. We are focusing on micro SME and SMEs. So once we start charging, and we do not know how volume will respond to charging, we would expect to go back to normal in terms of the growth profile of M-PESA. I wouldn't want to say what that normality is because, as Ilanna has said, no one knows how the second wave on COVID will affect the economy. And the people -- there are still very many people who are out of jobs, SMEs that are affected. So we are cautiously optimistic in terms of the underlying health of our business, but we just need to continue to manage and improve execution over the period and see where we end up. We have, of course, now given guidance for EBIT and CapEx, and that should give you an indication of where our confidence levels are, although there's 2 assumptions out there that are related to the economy.
Thank you. Thank you, Peter. The next question is from Dilya. The presentation shows a decline in disposable income through September. What is the relationship between the disposable income and Fuliza values? There appears to be no relationship between income levels and repayments, which have improved Q2 versus Q1.
Ilanna, do you want to take that one, or Sitoyo?
Yes. Hi, Dilya. So I think that the nature of Fuliza and the type of product it is, I suppose that, in some ways, it ensures that the amount of outstanding debt's repaid because if you have Fuliza outstanding, once money comes back into the wallet, the loan gets repaid. And maybe Sitoyo might be able to speak to this in a little bit more detail. I think Fuliza's performance has been strong, which I suppose, in some ways, is a reflection of the disposable income situation and that more people have been taking Fuliza. But I think it's just testament that the setup of the product construct is such that even the repayment rate has remained high. And yes, so it kind of facilitates convenience with the customers, especially in times of need like COVID, and from our side, it's a less risky kind of answer. Sitoyo, I don't know if you can speak to this in a little bit more detail?
Thanks, thanks, Ilanna. And you're right, it's how Fuliza was constructed. It's contextual in nature, and this is something that customers would normally have. It helps complete a transaction. The customer will normally have completed it in 2 or 3 days later. So the way it was designed, it does have low NPL. The growth is also pushed by the growth in customer numbers. It's also pushed by the growth in values and volumes. And given the scenario of COVID, which, in Kenya, cash has been seen as a means of transmission and the government has been pushing cashless -- going cashless, we're seeing more volumes coming in, and this has helped also Fuliza in terms of repayment, but also in terms of more money coming into M-PESA, as Ilanna had mentioned in terms of cash-ins as well as money coming in from the bank. So that acceleration of M-PESA from volume, values, customers is helping the growth of Fuliza and also maintaining the NPLs.
Thank you, Ilanna. Thank you, Sitoyo. Next question is from Alastair, and I will also loop in [ Elizabeth's ] questions because they are very closely related. So Alastair from New Street asked that could you talk about pricing for both voice and data services. For data year-on-year, revenue growth slowed from half '20 to half '21, but we have seen an acceleration in traffic. Has competition intensified? Or were there any factors at play? How should we think about data revenue trends going forward? In voice, it looks as if pricing pressure has also intensified. What is driving that? And what should we think about it going forward? Elizabeth is also asking about the outlook for mobile data and peak service for half 2.
Ilanna, do you want to start the question and then hand over to Sylvia?
Sure. Yes. So I think for data, yes, comparing to half 2 last year and half 1 this year, it does look like a slowdown in the growth rate. There has been consecutive quarter-on-quarter growth. Some of that growth rate into vis-à-vis year-on-year is a function of the fact that in half 2 last year, we were lapping the effects of what we've done in the previous year. So the high kind of 20% growth that we would have seen in half 2 last year is a function of what happened in the previous year. And that being said, I think competition, I'll let Sylvia speak to more in terms of the intensification of competition, et cetera. And data trends, I think we'll maybe be able to speak directionally more than the specifics at this stage. We will continue to see the price per MB or the effective rate per MB come down and the effective rate per minute come down. And usage will continue to grow and data, so that we could fully unlock the opportunity that's there and for voice, I suppose, to keep it relevant and to keep the -- both offering attractive. But I'll let Sylvia chip in here, maybe more on the competition market.
I think, for us, as an organization, the key thing we focus on, first of all, is customers. I mean competition are free to do what it is that they want to do. But for us, the most important thing is what is happening with our customers and what are they currently going through in their lives. As Peter shared during the investor -- during the presentation in the morning, you saw the impact on the consumer disposable income due to COVID. And traditionally, we have had a premium in this market, which is a strategy that we'll continue to maintain. But because we must drive affordability for our customers, because they don't have as much money as they previously had due to impacts of COVID, high levels of unemployment, we've seen a lot of businesses also closing in this market, and there's now a gradual reopening, but that impact is definitely there. And therefore, we made a deliberate choice to drive a lot more affordability for customers. You had Peter and Ilanna in the morning speak about what we have now done with our one-on-one personalized offering, that we are driving through CVM, and that has paid back for us in terms of traffic. So that's going to be a strategy that we're going to continue to deploy going into the future as we drive affordability. For data, we did take some decisions during the COVID period in terms of supporting our students with mobile data bundles that were highly subsidized from what we had before as well as small and medium enterprises. We also took a decision on fixed data, to get a lot more customers onto the service, but give them double speeds for the amount of money that they were normally paying for a number of fixed bundles. So those things, obviously, did have a short-term impact. But I think we are very happy to see what it's generating for us in terms of customer activity KPIs. Usage is up, if you look at it for mobile data. We are now carrying significantly higher, our voice traffic, which is good. FTTH paid off for us, Fibre to the Home, in terms of increased connections with customers coming on board. And overall, even in terms of NPS levels, we have actually seen our net promoter score go up over the period. So it's the right decisions that cost us in the short term, but they have paid off for our customers. So for us, the plan is people and focusing on our customers, what is important for them, how do we help them navigate through this period because we believe if we earn their trust and loyalty during this season, they will remain with us for the long term. So directionally, that's why we are going with our pricing strategy.
Thank you, Ilanna. Thank you, Sylvia. Our next question comes from [ SW ]. His question is what services do you plan to offer under wealth management? What is the progress on Mali? Will you be seeking a license from CMA? Then there is a follow-up question on Fuliza. What is the growth rates? And how much has been lent out? What's the average default rate?
Okay. So I'll start with a question on wealth management and the Mali product. And Sitoyo, feel free to build onto this. We would not go into too much detail here. I wanted to say that we are exploring this area. We have developed a couple of products. We are working with the regulators to seek approval. And until that approval is given or actually obtained, we would not want to announce our intention, including the specific product on Mali because of regulatory sensitivities before approval of our product is made. Sitoyo, you may want to add to that, given the broad agenda you have in terms of broadening our service offering in the financial services area subject to regulatory approval.
Thanks. Thanks, Peter. I think one of the things that M-PESA has been successful on is in driving financial inclusion. So when we started in 2007, financial inclusion was at 23%. That moved to about 84% as supported last year by Central Bank of Kenya. While the health -- financial health of customers in Kenya stagnated around 20%, so this is a key component of our transforming lives. So we've managed to drive financial inclusion, but financial health has remained fairly stagnant. And this is why we're looking at wealth, insurance, and providing deeper products and services that relates to savings is key in driving financial health and so that customers are able to avoid the shocks that are there, as an example of COVID as one of them. So the reason why we're looking to wealth management, insurance and broadening that is to deepen the savings culture and drive the financial health. So what you're looking at in wealth management is part of it. And -- but there are certain things that we are still discussing with the regulators, both the CMA and Central Bank, which, at this point, we cannot really discuss. But that is part of our intention, is to drive more products and services and drive savings. I think on Fuliza, I think Ilanna had mentioned that the NPLs are -- the NPL is about 0.4%. So -- and we continue to see double-digit growth in Fuliza volumes that goes through the threshold.
Thank you, Sitoyo. Just on Fuliza, there is a follow-up question on that from Tracy. And her question is, I see that KCB and I'm sure your disbursements have come down despite Fuliza going up. Is it a function of cannibalization or simply the banks being more stringent on lending requirements? And also, any update on Visa partnership?
Go ahead. Go ahead, Sitoyo.
So for just a bit of context, when COVID started, the Central Bank of Kenya stopped the listing of nonperforming loans in the market for both digital as well as banking products. And this meant that KCB and CBA, basically KCB M-PESA and M-Shwari, the discussion of the bank was to be more prudent during this period of time. Fuliza, given the contextual nature that have been discussed, was not so affected. So because of them, we are not listing customers, then we decided to tighten a little bit of that but that has since now reversed, and we are seeing great repayments on both M-Shwari and KCB M-PESA. So we'll be seeing a bit of growth in that aspect.
And also, on Visa, if you can update.
So on Visa, we -- when we announced the partnership in February to become -- so we have developed some products and services that we are looking to launch. So we just waited for regulatory approvals for those ones. And then in the next half, when we get that, then we'll be able to launch those products and services. Okay.
Thank you, Sitoyo. We have a follow-up question from Dilya. Peter, this is still on the CBK and free fees. Could you give perhaps some indication of the options that are being discussed with CBK?
Dilya, I am not in a position to give those options just because of the confidentiality involved in this matter. And generally, we do not discuss compositions with the regulator, especially on a matter like this, in the public until they are resolved because they could go either away. However, I would say that those compositions are going well. That's the one thing I would -- that's the way that I would put it at this stage.
Thank you, Peter. So our next question is from [ Rohan ]. And also, someone else in the group has a question closely related. I'll just call down and check who. Can you give us a sense of your assumptions for the guidance on EBIT, for example, what do you assume regarding the reintroduction of M-PESA fees, if at all, in H2? And yes, I think I'll go down and see who else had asked a similar question. Thank you.
Yes. In giving the guidance, and this might let -- probably relate to some of the previous questions, is that we've assumed that, at the very least, to start charging sometime in Q4.
Thank you. I think the other question was from [ Donatas ]. And I think [ Donatas ], your question has been responded to by Peter. So we'll move on to Henry Kabue, who is asking, kindly provide details on what year-over-year service revenue growth in H1 would have been, excluding M-PESA revenue. Secondly, could you explain the decline in FTTH ARPU despite a strong growth in new connections?
Yes. Thanks, Cyndia. Peter, I can take this. So excluding M-PESA revenue, service revenue grew marginally, 0.2% for the period. However, I did mention at the start of the call, voice was under pressure in quarter 1 as was fixed enterprise. So if I look at on a quarter-by-quarter basis in quarter 1, the business, excluding M-PESA, declined 0.7%, where it grew 0.7% in quarter 2. So similar enough to that 1% or so growth we saw that the business, excluding telco, performed at for full year last year. On the Fibre to the Home ARPU growth connections. So this is just a function of mix, Henry. So as more customers took up the offering that it didn't previously have, obviously, when we started rolling out Fibre to the Home, we started with the demographic areas we thought would give us the best return. Once those areas were serviced to continue to gain more and more customers, the takeoff seems to be largely the kind of lower-value packages, the bronze packages, and example, the silver package, which is giving a mix impact to the ARPU, which is causing the ARPU decline.
Ilanna, just one more addition, Cyndia, to Ilanna's answer. We did also, as part of the COVID response in Q -- in quarter 1, we did give significantly more bandwidth to Fibre to Home for free to support the working-from-home. And so we have a clear reference to some of the aspects around supporting education.
Thank you, Peter. Thank you, Ilanna. So we have a follow-up question from Dilya. During the strategy update this morning, Peter mentioned that partnerships and M&A would be strategic enablers. May I please ask the types of M&A you have in mind, size, lines of business?
I knew that question would come. I think that -- I would answer it in a broader sense. Safaricom has been extremely successful in the past 20 years, and we believe that, going forward, we will need to leverage more partnerships and M&As rather than do a lot of the things ourselves. So as we go into new areas, whether that's agriculture, in health, in education, but also, more broadly, even as we think about content, as we think about going into Internet of Things and other aspects of our business, we do need to leverage partnerships and M&A. So where it makes sense for us to acquire an entity to give us either speed to market or capacity, we will do that rather than which to build. So I don't want to go into specific areas. But certainly, one of the areas that you could think as an opportunity is the whole financial services area or whether when we go into the sort of digital ecosystems. So -- and also the content area because we don't want to build everything from scratch or take a very long time to build the assets we need to be able to win. So it is more generic, I know. But as soon as we start forming some themes in terms of the areas of interest for us, we will keep you informed.
Thank you, Peter. Our next question is from Danesh. Excluding Ethiopia, are there any other external expansion opportunities being explored?
Yes. From a geographical perspective, our primary focus, just so that we also maintain management effort in a specific area, our primary focus at this stage is Ethiopia. And once we are clear how that pans out, then we will discuss what are the areas we should go after. But it will be a significant effort because this would be the biggest investment that Safaricom has made for a very long time, both in terms of the size of the country, the future revenue opportunity, but also the operational capacity that will be required for us to be able to bring it to life. And that's the reason why we are focusing on that. On the financial services side, as you know, we signed the JV, which is primarily a cost, an innovation share in JV with Vodacom on a 50/50 basis. We have accelerated that in terms of pulling resources, investing together, so that we can create the future M-PESA from a platform perspective, but also start to accelerate and share best practice in the way we develop products. So if there are some countries that are ahead on, say, insurance, say, like South Africa is ahead on insurance, we will borrow some of those best practices in thinking about how we launch insurance in this market. And so the JV that we have on M-PESA will help us be able to accelerate our product development innovation, but also ensure that we have the best platform into the future and that can benchmark against the best globally. So those would be the 2 areas we are focusing on at this stage. I would ask Sitoyo to say a few adds on the JV and some of the work we are doing. And also, if you want to talk about anything you may want to touch on the IMT, Sitoyo.
Thanks, Peter. I think, from M-PESA Africa, as you stated, it's designed to look at M-PESA as one. Kenya has been very successful as an M-PESA market, but we have 7 other markets across. So while Kenya has about 26 million customers, we have over 42 million customers, that's the active M-PESA customers. So we are looking at leveraging our strength to build once and deploy enterprise-wide. So that helps in terms of our CapEx spend, OpEx spend. We are looking at how do we leverage on our scale when we're talking about global partnerships that we want to engage in. So we are looking at state-of-the-art common platforms that we invest in as well as giving a broad range of access to partners beyond the African border to enable both e-commerce as well as international payments and remittance. To talk about international remittance, IMT, we've seen very good growth during this -- the last 6 months. We've seen more inflows coming into the country and today, over 50% of all inflows into Kenya, coming into M-PESA. And we're seeing that being part of not only revenue, but also funding our downstream transactions on M-PESA. So international money transfer today, we have over 28 partners, such as PayPal, AliExpress, WorldRemit, Western Union, MoneyGram. And we continue to expand this. And for M-PESA Africa, we'll be leveraging on the strength of M-PESA to be able to bring in more partners to our markets.
Thank you, Peter. Thank you, Sitoyo. Our next question is from Samuel Njihia. On the new Pochi La Biashara feature, the business funds will not be used to offset all our draft facilities. Do you anticipate customers using this feature to delay making payments on Fuliza? If there's misuse, are there any measures you may implement to cap it?
Sitoyo, do you want to go for your favorite topic?
Yes. So I think this -- it's a great question, and it's good that we have captured Pochi La Biashara, which is our latest product, targeting -- as we just say, we're targeting SME and micro SME. Pochi La Biashara targets micro SME. And today, we have 5.4 million micro SMEs within our ecosystem. And this micro SMEs do not qualify from a KYC to be able to get our margin still. So what we've designed is a wallet that separates the business and personal lines when they receive money via P2P. When the money comes onto the Pochi or the secondary wallet, yes, this is not impacted, does not repay Fuliza. But remember, this is an ecosystem. So they will be doing more transactions across the M-PESA platform, but as well as also with drain. And draining that whole period, Fuliza will be captured. So we have mitigated the -- any potential leakages, but we also -- to Peter's point, we are empowering our micro SMES. Today, they can also sell airtime and get a commission on it. So when you -- this is the beginning of something great that we're looking at on in terms of how do we empower micro SMEs in our ecosystem.
Thank you, Sitoyo. The next question is from Dilya. And we also have Tracy, who's asked a very similar question. Lipa Mdogo Mdogo was launched during this period. What is the initial takeup or demand? And then Tracy asked how many devices have been released under the 4G subsidized handset program? What is the average usage for these customers?
Thank you. Great question. I'll ask Sylvia to talk about that one.
Okay. Thank you. And thank you for remembering that we launched Lipa Mdogo Mdogo towards the end of May. So yes, very excited about the results that you're seeing coming out of this. We had said that we were going to use the first quarter to test what would the customer behavior be in terms of takeup but also, in terms of the repayments that you would be seeing coming through and the change in terms of their usage profile. Remember, we're targeting predominantly 2G users, getting them to move directly to 4G. Because as you probably know, if you look at the profile of the handsets in our network, about almost 50% of our customers are still using 2G phones. So a big opportunity to be able to move those customers to 4G as we have continued to accelerate the network coverage. So good encouraging early results. Now we want to scale up using our dealer network because we are only initially offering this through the retail channel. We have just probably about 50,000 customers already taken it up. We can see upwards of about 30% increase in ARPU on their data usage, from 2G to 4G, which is also very encouraging. And now we want to really ramp up by leveraging our dealer infrastructure. We have over 2,000 dealer points across the country to be able now to offer these to our customers. The NPL performance has also been good and very much performing within the business case expectations that we had set. So that is also going well. When we look at the overall 4G devices, attachment on the network, also growing well in line with plan. There is what we drive through the sales that we do through our retail shop, but there is also what is driven across -- by the retail market. And that's why it's important for us as an organization to shape the profile of the devices that have been pushed in the market. When we focus on pushing 4G devices, we also see the open market also pushing the same. And therefore, we have seen an increment of over 1 million smartphones that have been added onto our network since we came into this year, just simply by focusing on working with the open market to ensure that we are adding a lot more LTE phones on the network. So that is good for us. We're excited about that. And we'll continue to push that into the second half of this year.
Thank you, Sylvia. Our next question comes from Louise Pillay. Please, can you give more color on your increase in IT CapEx spend? Your current guidance implies a step-down in CapEx intensity in half 2 relative to half 1. Also, please provide an update on how you're managing the network demands and related-network OpEx.
Ilanna, do you want to talk about CapEx?
Yes. Hi, Louise. Thanks for the questions. So the IT-related spend relates to things like biometrics, voice biometrics, upgraded dealer, PINless vending portal, increased kind of capacity and functionality on our various databases. And the one I called out this morning relating to M-PESA, the embedded platform, which makes it easier to launch new products and easier to integrate APIs. And CapEx intensity for half 2, yes, is expected to drop versus half 1. We took the decision to accelerate our CapEx, capital expenditure in half 1 and to support, I suppose, top line growth. We thought it was best to do what we could to support the growth given we knew it would be under this significant pressure. And then your last question, network operating expenses, so our network OpEx is in good control. We're showing a saving year-on-year in half 1. So it's in good control of it.
Thank you, Ilanna. Our next question is from Jake. Jake, I believe the question on guidance has been responded to by Peter. But for any further details, you can reach out to us directly. I think I will move on to [ Soji's ] question. [ Soji's ] asking what are your updated strategic thoughts on M-PESA rollout into the market? And what should we expect from M-PESA over the next 3 to 5 years? Any possibility of spinning off this business and listing it separately?
Can I ask Sitoyo to answer the question? I can answer the question about spinning, but Sitoyo, can you talk about what we are thinking in terms of broadening M-PESA?
So M-PESA Africa, as I mentioned earlier, is designed to look at M-PESA as one unified platform. And what we're looking at, while Kenya is ahead in terms of products and services and also the platform, other markets are not at powered cadence. So we've got a big opportunity to accelerate those buckets but as well as accelerate Kenya in terms of the new innovations that are coming on board. We can't say that M-PESA Africa is almost like a cost center. So Safaricom and Vodacom are investing more CapEx into M-PESA Africa to accelerate Safaricom as well as accelerate the other markets. In terms of any other opportunity that we do -- that we may see beyond the markets that we have, those will be evaluated. And if there's any attractive market, then I'm sure Peter and the Board will be guiding on that. But in terms of M-PESA Africa, the same, is to strengthen M-PESA, have common platforms, build once, deploy enterprise-wide.
Yes. Sitoyo, could you speak a little bit more about just becoming a financial services provider in Kenya?
Thank you, Peter. I think from -- as we move into more credit propositions, savings propositions, we are looking at broadening our financial services portfolio into areas on wealth management, insurance and then deeper products and services for our SME and our micro SMEs. So when you look at, as an example, our merchant solution, which we have about 200,000 active merchants, we are providing capacity, planning for them and support. We are looking at providing better products and services from the transacting GL business up and putting this all under the SME platform. And then we're looking at how do we empower them by providing them with working capital going forward. So from an SME standpoint, from a financial services -- broader financial services provider, we're looking at that. The second bit in it on the pillar is also looking at M-PESA as a super app and we are working to build. If you're seeing what Alipay had done, it's the same concept we are looking at and putting M-PESA as a fully -- as a super app for both merchants as well as for the consumer side of it. The third part of it is also looking at how our open API strategy is in terms of enabling -- opening up our APIs more. Today, we have over 28,000 developers on our platform. We're looking to have -- having a more open API to incur more partnerships as well as leveraging our partnerships such as Visa and so on. And then the fourth part of it is on our technology infrastructure, ensuring that it is fit for growth, but it is scalable, it's secure, and we are putting active sites, micro services and it's cloud ready, so that we are able to take advantage of all the opportunities that come with regarding to be a fully fledged financial services provider.
Thank you, Sitoyo. And just to reinforce, I know you probably heard me say that in the last quarter, when we interacted with you, that M-PESA has been primarily focused on individual customers. The reorienting of M-PESA into the enterprise piece, especially micro and SMEs, has a huge headroom for growth. And we've seen it during COVID, that SMEs play such a central role to how our economy operates, to the level of employment, so then in terms of the country, we can do a lot more by just ensuring that we are much more specific and focused on innovation that empower SMEs. So of course, on the partner side, we will continue to push the boundaries. But you'll see a lot more focus on SMEs and micro SMEs. In terms of whether we would intend to spin M-PESA as a separate business, from a structural perspective, that's something that we will continue to review. As the business evolves, as Safaricom evolves, we continue to review which is the most optimal structure, corporate structure that we should have, and shareholding structure. And as we bring in more partnerships and potential M&As, we may consider other structural options in the organization way that would make more sense. I do not want to say too early what we will do with M-PESA. But as you know, as you would have seen from our strategy, it is about focusing on broadening it to be a financial services provider. How that venture is -- shows up in the structure, we will come back to you at an appropriate time.
Thank you, Peter. It's 5:01 or 5:02 Kenyan time. We still have a couple of more questions to go. I don't know how you would like to carry this forward. If there is no more time, we can obviously...
I think we should take those that have already been put on the board.
Sure. Okay. So I'll just very quickly move on to Sunil's question. Will the company contemplate a cut in M-PESA fees from previous levels to retain their volume?
Yes. It's a great question. And actually, it's an interesting one that we are considering. But we would want to see how consumers respond to volume before we make a significant judgment on that. But it is something that we are looking at, and we would intend to reduce our cost -- I mean, our transaction cost over time. How quickly we do that is something that we need to judge. But certainly, directionally, we would want that to be the case. But we haven't made a decision yet at this stage.
Thank you, Peter. The next question is from [ Fred ] and [ Philippe ]. They're both asking about FTTH. [ Fred ] asked, since you have made very good progress in the FTTH market, can you provide some idea, what's your view as the -- what you view as the target market in terms of number of homes in this segment? And then [ Philippe's ] question is closely related. What size do you expect for the FTTH business as a percentage of service revenue in, say, 5 years? And what is the CapEx intensity for this business currently in the long term?
Sylvia, please feel free. Can you still hear me?
Yes. We can hear you. During our 10th year anniversary celebrations, Peter did announce that we have a big ambition around FTTH and delivering fiber to homes. I think we are very clear that the way people work going into the future will dramatically change due to what we have seen with COVID. A lot of people want to work from home or they at least want to have the option of remote working. And therefore, that presents for us a big opportunity in the area of delivering broadband connectivity to homes. So we are focusing on that. And from a strategic perspective, the ambition is to ensure we cover 1 million homes with our fiber connectivity within the next 5 years. So we are going to be resourcing for that. I'll let Ilanna speak to the CapEx intensity for the same. But even from a consumer perspective, the way we look at this is, well, not every home may be covered by a fiber connection. There's also a big opportunity for us to be able to leverage their wide and extensive 4G network to deliver a 4G wireless solution as a last-mile connectivity option, which then enables us to be able to scale and reach a broader base of customers. And therefore, that means that we are looking at people who are young adults who are working from home or people who are also running their own enterprises, small businesses and are looking to see how can I be able to do that from the comfort of my home. So a broader base of customers from what we have traditionally had in the past, which is exciting because it means that demand is there. But a challenge for us that we have to figure out is how do we do this in a way that is scalable and also in a way that is affordable so that we do not then increase the costs at the end users, in line with the affordability and management that I spoke about too earlier. Ilanna, if you could take the question on CapEx intensity?
Yes. Thank you, Sylvia. So Fibre-in-the-Home CapEx intensity, it's not something we track. The largest, biggest reason for this is so we were investing in our fiber network for redundancy purposes. The Fibre-to-the-Home part is like our way of trying to sweat that asset or like amortize it further by then connecting it to home. So the fiber wasn't laid specifically, not all of us, for connected homes. It was laid for redundancy, and we connected homes to increase the monetization. So for that reason, we don't track CapEx intensity on that specific revenue.
Thank you, Ilanna. Thank you, Sylvia.
Can I just make one additional point? Just to say that given that home, and just generally, what Sylvia described as fixed, whether that's Fibre-to-Home or Fibre-to-Business would become a lot more important. We will pay a lot more attention in terms of both the way we invest, but also the way we sub. Sub is customer, the customer onboarding process, the way we service them and the level of automation because, at the moment, as you know, our business was primarily focused on mobile. And that's why we do not set targets as to what contribution, home or fixed, would have in the future. But just to say, there's a significant opportunity to complement our mobile business, but also that we allow customers to feel that they have a home connection, but is kind of an always-on connection, whether they are at home or on the go or in the office. So we will be putting a lot more structure around that in terms of how we manage that business in a more focused way than what potentially we have done in the past.
Thank you. Thank you, Peter. Dilya, please allow us to get back to you on e-mail re on your M-PESA question. Danesh asked the 6% decline in OpEx, is that predominantly due to coverage? How should we look at OpEx growth?
I can -- you want to take it, Peter? Or you want me to? Okay. So thanks, Danesh. Yes.
You would expect that I would want you to respond to that.
Yes. That's fine. I thought you were going to answer. So yes, Danesh, thanks for that. So predominantly due to a decline in COVID. So yes, we've seen some OpEx savings as a result of COVID, travel, as an example, off-site meetings, conferences, et cetera. And -- but we've also seen an increase from the point of view of PPE equipment for frontline staff, facilitating work-to-home, et cetera. And we've also made some decisions in terms of prioritizing spend for the year. We're obviously conscious of the fact that P&L is under some pressure. So publicity expenses, as an example, you can see a decline year-on-year. Now some of those savings, I think, will probably stay with us in future periods as we look to ways to digitize more and for example, our route to consumer versus the way we have been doing it. And if you're asking in terms of how you should think about OpEx for this financial year, I would say, half 1 is, on an underlying basis, is a fairly good guide. For next year and the years too that follow that, I think we'll see some OpEx growth, which you'll see continued OpEx intensity reduction because we do need to fund the new revenue streams, as Peter called out regarding our strategy. Health, agriculture, expanding into newer verticals is very much part of our strategy that does require some resources to be put behind it to really ensure that it comes to fruition and we can really safeguard the future sustainability of the business. So from a longer-term perspective, we expect to see OpEx growth at a reducing OpEx intensity.
Thank you, Ilanna. As [ Jaclyn ] asks, please speak to what guided the investment in Circle Gas, sorry.
Circle Gas, yes.
So just a very brief reason why we invested in Circle Gas. Circle Gas, as you know, and through Circle Gas, we -- they control a company called M-Gas here in this country. It is to avail LPG gas on a pay-as-you-go basis for families that struggle or for households that struggle to cook with the right type of cooking. So they may choose firewood or they may choose a very rudimentary kind of dirty fuel, so to say, kerosene and so on and so forth. So Circle Gas allows us to get into an area that is very similar to some of the ways that we have transformed lives in the past and enable households to be better and also to use a more friendly, environmentally, a more friendly kind of cooking method. The initial response so far has been very good. The partnership with -- we hold less than 20% shareholding. But we are learning a lot about those customers, and through their planning, we can be able to innovate. As you know, that is also using IoT, Internet of Things, which is an area that -- which is a platform that we want to utilize, to enable better ways of operating business operation and so on and so forth. So it is in line with our intent to transform lives. And also, it's a big opportunity given the number of people in this country who would be eligible to use this kind of method into the future. So that's the reason why we've gotten into it, and it's a very exciting area and we'll keep you informed on how it goes.
Thank you, Peter. [ Willis ] asks, on SMS and M-PESA revenues, what is your projected gaming revenues? Do you anticipate any increase in revenue, especially with the anticipation of reentry of Sports M-PESA?
Thanks, [ Willis ], for the questions. So betting revenues from the point of view of total M-PESA revenue is by 4% of the total currently. The point of view of SMS, the lion's share that comes through something that we could pass as both SMS, which doesn't sit within the messaging line of business within other service revenue, in terms of its overall contribution, from our point of view, betting is not something that we actively track or target as a means to increase revenue, be it in M-PESA or in SMS. We were, I suppose, the beneficiaries of the payment method of choice for betting when it really topped off in Kenya a few years ago. And since it's declined, we've always kind of messaged that our view is it was never really a sustainable revenue stream such that it didn't form part of our targets in terms of trying to drive it further. So if something happens with Sports M-PESA, where the -- we happen to be the beneficiaries of it, then well and good, but it's not something that we would factor into our own internal targets and something that potentially impacts the economy will ultimately be an impact to us. It's not an area that we drive or try to follow. Peter or Sitoyo, I don't know if you want to add anything onto that?
I think, Ilanna, from my side, you've captured it.
Yes, same here.
Thank you, Ilanna. So the next question is from [ Kishan ], and I'll group that with [ Shuti's ] question. Is Safaricom planning any announcements on 5G in the near future? What are your thoughts on possible 5G spectrum costs in Kenya? And then [ Shuti ] asks, since congratulations on 20 years, we are seeing some operations across SCC selling data, what is Safaricom's strategy here?
On 5G, it's a question that was asked by the media earlier this morning. And my response is that there is still so much headroom for us to exploit and fully utilize 4G even before we go into 5G. Of course, 5G has relevance in this country and will be part of our plan for being a purpose-led technology company over the next 5 years. So we will go into 5G. We've tested it in this country. We will go through the conversations around spectrum with government in the background. But in terms of immediacy, we are not intending at this stage to go big on 5G in the near term, but still be part of our 5-year strategy. Steve, I wouldn't want to go into the delicate issue about spectrum fee levels for 5G because that has not been determined, but I'll leave it to you to just if there's anything you want to say on that front.
Okay. The pricing of spectrum in Kenya has been very predictable. And it tends to happen through a direct pricing methodology by the regulator. We don't go through auctions and such, which tends to push up the cost of frequency for operators. That means the administrative pricing methodology that has been used in the past has ensured that the highest-costing spectrum band has been $25 million. So we know -- we suspect that a similar methodology might be applied when the regulator is ready with 5G. And at that time, we shall have the discussion. But I wouldn't want to go beyond that. What I would rather say is we're also very grateful to the regulators for their support during this COVID period, when they have made additional resources available to ourselves to be able to carry the capacity that we have seen increasing during this COVID period.
Yes. Steve, I agree with you. I want just to reinforce what Steve has said in terms of support. We've had a very positive working relationship with the communication authority, with the ICT Ministry, and also generally, the industry in terms of support during this period with additional spectrum. We've had to carry a lot more capacity, both on our voice, but also data in particular. So we do -- we are very grateful by the partnership that we've seen from the regulatory authorities in terms of -- during -- in supporting us during this period. And we hope, and we do know that this will continue again going forward.
Thank you, Peter.
Cyndia, we had intended not to -- because we are 18 past the hour. So unless there are some banner questions, I think we do need to bring the call at some point just to respect to everyone's time.
Yes, sure. I think there's one...
Yes. Go ahead.
Sorry. The last question is actually from Sunil. Can you please comment on the network vendor strategy? What are you seeing in terms of pricing environment and if there is anything you would highlight? I think that is our final question for the day, Peter.
And just, Sunil, if -- I'm not sure I understand -- unless someone, Ilanna, if you understand the question. Vendor strategy? I'm not sure I understand the question on the network side. Steve, do you understand the question?
I can only assume it's relating to like quality versus -- yes, Steve?
I thought about it along those lines as well. And Ilanna, this should be up your street in terms of who we rely on as our main suppliers.
Yes. So in terms of our network vendor strategy, we were predominantly Huawei. We're now 100% Huawei. We do have a job under network. There wasn't any particular changes to that. Peter, I'm going to let you comment. Not aware of it in terms of pricing environment, I think we highlighted -- I'm not entirely clear on the nature of the questions. So I think I'm trying to read between the lines, but I suspect it's relationships like by Huawei versus other providers.
Yes. We do have a policy of having 2 big suppliers just so that we do not rely on one. In terms of pricing, we have continued to demand more value from our supply base, and we've seen that in terms of being able to get more value. We are also sensitive because we have reframed the way we think about technology so that we are investing a lot more on the IT, that the proportion of IT has increased, which is important, especially with the M-PESA, but also data centers and so on and so forth. The IT infrastructure is important. But nothing major has changed with respect to our vendor strategy or major pricing changes. We are much more -- we have started, as part and you will have seen from our strategic pillar #4, which is we want to be a cost leader in the future. And of course, CapEx and the smart investment becomes part of that cost leadership. So we will put a lot more scrutiny in terms of the way we source. And of course, CapEx is a significant part of our sourcing area. So you can expect a bit more from a proactive approach element because there had been a major change in terms of our vendor strategy.
[ Salome ], we will get back to you on email. Other than that, Peter, thank you very much for the additional time that you and the entire exco team have given us. I think that is it from our end, unless you have any closing remarks.
So just to thank everyone who had been on this call, I have great questions that we have received and our team -- and myself and our teams are ready to provide any additional input. As you know, it's a tough time, it's an uncertain time. We've seen signs of a second wave. We are encouraged by where our business is in terms of health and also, in particular, some of the recovery that we have seen in quarter 2. Our intention is to continue to push the boundaries around execution. And you will have seen our new strategy, to start to execute based on our -- those key 4 pillars, but also focus on the strategic enablers. So I will end it there, and thank you for a great call. And if there's any further thing that you want from us, very happy to receive the emails. Thank you very much, and have a great afternoon or a great day, depending on where you are. Thank you very much.
Read the full transcript via the API
You're viewing the first half of this call. Get the complete Safaricom PLC transcript - plus 251,000+ transcripts from 12,000+ companies, speaker segments and full-text search - through the EarningsAPI REST API or hosted MCP server.
Get an API key View API docs →For developers and AI pipelines
Programmatic access to Safaricom PLC earnings transcripts and 251,000+ others is available through the
EarningsAPI REST API and the hosted MCP server.
Quarterly plans from $105 - full transcripts, speaker segments, full-text search,
and the /api/v1/transcripts/recent polling endpoint for ETL pipelines.