Sivers Semiconductors AB (publ) (SIVE) Earnings Call Transcript

Good morning, and welcome to this fourth quarter webcast for Sivers Semiconductors. My name is Anders Storm, and I'm the Group CEO of Sivers, I'm going to take you through the report. If we look at the Q4 report, we came in on net sales close to SEK 50 million, increasing the sales by 113%. If we look at the full year, we came in at SEK 133 million, increasing sales by 46% year-on-year. During the quarter, we've received one of our absolutely largest orders ever from a Satcom company of SEK 170 million that will be delivered -- started delivering in Q4 but also delivered over the year. We also got another hardware order from a Satcom company to be delivered during 2023. We also got the first breakthrough order for the Indian 5G market, where we have SEK 3.3 million. We also revealed a Canadian customer using our solutions for radar applications. We also had a partnership with Chalmers Technology here in Sweden, which is a high-end university. And we have announced over the quarter and just before the quarter started a record-breaking order of SEK 210 million, ranging from the 12th of September to the 30th of December last year. We look more details of the report, as I mentioned, quite great growth in the quarter. We're also improving our EBITDA margin quite heavily due to mainly the growth on the top line. We also actually improving EBIT, but it looks like it gets more negative due to the acquisition of MixComm and amortization and depreciation of about SEK 60 extra million year-on-year based on that. So if we remove that, it is actually a similar improvement as on the EBITDA. If we look at the full year, it has been sort of a good year overall with 46% growth with 2 really good quarters coming in, in Q1 and Q4, 2 flat quarters Q2, Q3. Still a quite good growth in the market has been a bit challenging, but we now see a very positive move forward and moving into 2023, the Board have decided to do the first outlook for the company, and I will come into more in that. Also seeing a quite large improvement in the EBITDA, which is minus SEK 73.7 million compared to SEK 107 million last year. And also sort of less improvement, sort of in the EBIT. But if we look at the reason behind that, actually, again, it is the write-downs in the acquisition of MixComm, which is written down over 15 years, and that was an increase of SEK 77 million. So removing that, we have an improvement actually of some SEK 40 million over the year, which is in line with the EBITDA numbers. Also, looking at cash equivalents and other current final assets, we actually ended the year with about SEK 105.7 million after the cash flow in the quarter. If we look at the segment reporting, we are coming from quite small numbers in the wireless, but we're growing wireless now about almost 700%, which is sort of moving wireless actually for the first time as the biggest business unit for the company with SEK 26.9 million in sales with the photonics of 22.8%. Photonics growing about 15%. And looking now at the segment, we are more or less the same in the markets in the North American and the European market, thanks to the European SATCOM orders that we're working with and Asia is about the same as it's been before. If we look at also the Board have decided to do an outlook for 2023, and we are announcing that it will be at least 100% net sales growth. However, as we know, it's been varying like in this year between quarters with 100% and 0% growth in some quarters, even if it's going to be higher growth, of course, than 0% in many quarters here. And if we look at the overall EBITDA, we are seeing a positive adjusted EBITDA during the second half of 2023. So we are keeping a very positive view and a positive growth for the coming year as well. So if we summarize it and look like a bit from a longer horizon in 2016, we had a revenue of about SEK 18 million, and now we've grown that quite heavily over the years. We have had some struggles and challenges, of course, during the pandemic and the sort of effects of the war and everything. But now we can see the growth coming and 46%, as I said, ending up with SEK 132 million. And then now then 100% growth, which means about SEK 265 million for the full year 2023. So looking at the significant events, as I mentioned, the SATCOM order, the hardware order on SATCOM coming in already this year as well, breakthrough in India as well as a partnership with Chalmers University. So if we look at the SATCOM order, which is based on 2 different projects we're working on with this customer on top of the other projects we're already working on. We can see that this is sort of expecting or recognized up to 70% of the agreement from sort of Q4 to end of 2023. We are also seeing that this is sort of just the start of sort of the work, so to speak. But if we look at the big sort of income for this in the future, will definitely be in hardware sales where we already then have hardware sales, which is going to grow generally an increasing TAM in the market. So this is sort of a way of seeing it when the total TAM is going to be something like SEK 50 billion for these kind of chipsets from 23 to 28. we have seen the first pre-series orders of about SEK 18 million. But if we also look at sort of the overall here, it could be as much as USD 1 billion for the Sivers going forward in this kind of SEK 50 billion market or SEK 5 billion market. So if we can just follow this, we are going to see a very heavy growth also in the future. If we look at the other order, which is sort of in total for the hardware, it's about SEK 18 million, which is part of the forecast for 2023 now. We have been working on this. And this is actually quite sort of small production volumes, and we're still due to the many chips in each flat panel we're getting quite a heavy growth and sales. And this is just up until Q3 '23, and we expect actually to get more hardware orders for Q4 also sometime during the first half of this year. If we look at the Indian market, we can say that the Indian market is now one of the millimeter wave market that is really moving in the right direction. We got the sort of a smaller order here for just 3 million, but it's really a breakthrough when it comes to this market because that's going to be a very substantial market in the millimeter wave after the U.S. market is probably going to be the #2 or #3 of the China. And this is the first time we're also working with Intel's Agilex baseband, which is a big step, and we're going to hear much more about that in the Mobile World Congress, which is starting in week 9. And of course, this is expected to turn into volume orders in the future. This is just to start and the work of it. So this is very exciting, and this is just one of many Indian customers right now. And the Chalmers University, again, sort of showing our sort of long on high technology work in the company, and we can see that -- we are now working also with Chalmers with the next-generation sort of high-end CMOS technologies here, and this is a reward of 4 million total and 2 million receivers over 2 years. So I am -- I have got a lot of questions around the balance sheet and the M&A situation and so forth. I thought that would be sort of helpful to go into this. There will be, of course, much more details than we have in the quarterly reports in the yearly report where that comes out with all the notes, and you can read more about current liabilities and noncurrent IPs. But in general, sort of if you look at sort of the loan situation, for example, we have fairly little loan in the company per se. We have used or withdrawn the first SEK 50 million of the loan facility that we have, and we have the right to withdraw another SEK 50 million of that. We still have, as I said, SEK 105 million something in the bank, including this. And that means that we don't have sort of a need for cash immediately. In that sense, we've been able to use this, and we haven't started using the loan even in the sales. So this is sort of under the current liability under the convertible loan here, as you can see on the right, and also it's under other liabilities. So there's a mix of loans there. Then, of course, if we look at the accounts payable, that is sort of supply and working capital and IP that's going to be paid for in the future, which is sort of part of the running business, so to speak. -- leasing liabilities, of course, it's part of the monthly fees in the income statement. We are paying for equipment, test equipment and that kind of things. And occurred expenses and deferred income as well, of course, is things that we have here. But in overall, I mean, the real thing to look at here is possibly the loan of the current loan of SEK 50 million and some of the longer-term loan we have actually had, which is SEK 4 million here, which you will see in -- that we took up from Nordea a couple of years ago. So if you look at the long-term loan, we have sort of in -- SEK 7 million here. So in total, it's something like SEK 60 million in the loan only currently. Then there's been a lot of questions about this deferred tax liability in the noncurrent liabilities. And looking at those, I mean we have -- this is nothing that we need to pay. That's amortized over the income statement over the year and over the life span. So this is not going to be paid out per se. This is just a liability due to the acquisition of MixComm. And there's nothing to worry about in that sense. And again, another big poster is the leasing liabilities, which is sort of long-term leasing of test equipment and that kind of stuff, which is also part of the monthly sort of quarterly cost in the income statement. So overall, that is sort of the actual loans and stuff we're paying off on is about SEK 60 million or something like that. The MixComm earn-out, as you know, there's been a process around that. That was a performance-based earnout about 7 million shares. Unfortunately, or so say, it was not achieved within the time frame. It was supposed to be achieved, but this customer and project is progressing. So it's not sort of lost in any way, but it was a time frame on it, and we couldn't achieve that time frame. Hence, there's been a reversal of the provisions of earn-out effects in Q4, which is sort of affecting the -- that we have a positive bottom line and that effect is about SEK 78 million. If we look at the market and customers, so give you an update on the overall here for everybody to understand sort of what is it that drives this growth? And what is it that makes the company growing right now? And what other verticals do we really have. And as you know, we are focusing on 6 large megatrends within the company, and it's in high speed, speed broadband, of course, connected to lasers used for fiber connectivity, but also 5G in different aspects. We also have the autonomous driving, where we have LiDAR and radar applications for autonomous cars. We have the silicon photonics, where you can do a lot of different things with our lasers, which are now in several Fortune 100 solutions. We have the satellite communication. We have the augmented reality where you can use our lasers and also connectivity for AR, VR with 5G connectivity. And of course, any type of invasive health monitoring and that kind of stuff with different silicon photonics and others. So to give you some understanding of what is it then like behind this and how are we connected to this in customers? And why are these megatrends so important -- so if we look at like all of these 3 verticals, basically the Photonics, the Satcom and the 5G, we can look at the customers and specifically customers that we've been talking about in the Capital Markets Day. So for example, Ayar Labs, which is one of the most interesting companies that we recently announced things with I'm going to announce more things with, they have during the last year, received SEK 1.3 billion for their solutions from customers and partners like HP, Intel, NVIDIA, Lockheed Martin. There is a really big push in investment and funding proof point in this technology, and it's now coming to fruition in the market. Also, if you look at ALL:SPACE Satcom, they have sort of a future imminent investment coming into the company of about us as their CEO said about SEK 750 million. They are working with all the big companies, including military, like U.S. Army when it comes to satellite communication, Inmarsat, Boeing, Tesla, SCS and so forth. On the 5G side of things, we have another company who recently got funding a bit smaller, but still interesting AirVine doing some special things with our solutions for 5G. They have companies like Crosslink Capital, value, capital partners, loaders, partners and so forth. So a really, really strong customer ecosystem that is well funded, and we're seeing that we are providing all of these in all of these verticals with the heart of the technology to be able to connect these things to the world. So basically, all the technology they have, we provide a technology that makes their technology work basically with connecting it to the physical world with the laser or with the radar or with the beamformer or antenna or so forth. So it's a very interesting that we are so much in the middle of the technology that is delivered. So all of these verticals together address sort of a total TAM of USD 10 billion. So the satcom market is 5 billion. The 5G is 2.7 billion, and the Photonics is 5 billion -- so in total here, we have a huge market to address, and we are just seeing the first steps in this market right now that we are going into sort of an accelerated growth and seeing over 100% growth also next year with 46% this year. If we take a look at the Fortune 100 customer, which has been the first one, which is sensor for consumer devices. We've been working quite a long time with them. It's been a long project. They have actually now invested SEK 137 million. Another SEK 7 million has come in, in orders during Q4, which is the best year so far with SEK 41 million in sales in our Photonics business. We have recently had meetings with them in the U.S. and great -- they are sort of a great working relationship, and they're very happy with our deliveries. They are now sort of saying that it's going from sort of a technology project into volume type of things. So in their message is sort of that -- it's now more about when than if it's going to happen, and they're very happy with us and want us as a supplier for this. And we are hopeful to get confirmation during 2023 on when this production will start, even if it's, of course, not all 100% sure things can happen, but this is the most positive we've been so far, and this is the first time they confirm that this now is going to production in the future. So this is very positive news in that sense. If we look at the Tier 1 customer here, we've been sort of one of the acquisitions. We got a Tier 1 customer in the telecom space. It's a multiyear development project we are ongoing, designing NRE and so forth. They have changed their array size and they've done a lot of changes to fit the market better what they want to do. This has sort of delayed a bit of things. We are -- we have done the first prototype build. We are working on the second prototype building Q2 this year, and they are using several of our chipsets in the solutions. So we are still going on and it's moving ahead, and we're very excited to work with this customer. If we look at the sort of rail possibilities we've seen over the years. And First Group has successfully committed the first 50 kilometer rail now outside of London. It has, of course, taken much longer time due to the pandemic. But if you look at these solutions and evo-rail, which is the spin-out from First Rail, which is 100,000 employee company, they have now sort of employed people all over Europe in the U.S., and they are really working to get all of this technology into different places. So we're very excited to be part of this and sustainability with people traveling on trains with good connectivity, just around the corner with this fantastic solution that evo-rail is providing. Also, we talked about the project with Sivers and MaxLinear, which is a 10 gigabit point-to-point solution. That project is ongoing. We've delivered samples in June and first smaller bags of this in November. They have had some issues with their baseband when it comes to supply, but we still see that it's going to go into volumes in 2023 and moving into the right direction and is part of the future forecaster. AirVine, the wave tunnel again gets a lot of attention now. They're going to have a big launch also for Mobile World Congress. And I think this is going to be one of the most interesting products actually out there, and they are very alone actually in this market and can make big headways. If you look at KREEMO, our partner in South Korea. They have been working on this and working with several handset manufacturers to help us getting into -- to also the consumer electronics side of things when it comes to the 5G, they have put into the first prototype orders now to build some larger volumes than just sort of samples that they've done so far. So we are hopeful, and this is moving in the right direction for the future as well. If we look at Cambium, they have their solution now. It's been out for some time, and they have put in orders and bought hardware from us, and we are very happy to be part of them, and they are already using our technology -- next-generation technology as well to build the next solution for themselves. If we look at ADTRAN, which is now sort of CCS and ADTRAN has now become one company since last time, they actually purchased CCS which I think is a good thing, which would sort of reduce margin stacking and create an even better solution and at a lower cost point. So they are out selling this. They are not going in the speeds that we hope for so far, much due to the RDOF, which is sort of the funding from the U.S. government, but they are out in, I think, plus 20 trials in this, and we hope soon to see effects on these things as well. Then we have Fujikura in Japan. They have been working in different projects with different large vendors, everything from the bus trial they've been doing with autonomous buses and ITS systems in Japan with other big vendors. They recently also released now for Mobile World Congress that they work with a company called [ Intopeaks ] where they're actually using sort of 4K video streaming using 60 gigahertz solutions with very low latency. So they are more and more coming to market. And the project is still very exciting, and I think they are doing a great job in Japan even if it's taking quite some time for them to get there. If we look at the third Fortune 100 customer. That is still ongoing. We delivered on the samples in November this year, and they're happy with the samples we expect, and we have meetings with them now in the U.S., and we expect to see more orders and getting into the next phase of this. Talking about the second Fortune 100 customer, we have not sort of got any update yet on what they want to do or not. On top of that, of course, we're working with multiple Fortune U.S. technology companies. On top of that, I will hopefully share more on during 2023 as well. But this project is also a very interesting project, and we also see multiple new projects with this customer actually. And if we look at the Ayar Labs, the work is really going well. There is different sort of demonstrations and fares. We are going to jointly demo this and going forward, and we're talking about now sort of getting into the next phase with Ayar Labs, and they're very happy with the technology so far. So this is one of the most exciting projects out there when it comes to these solutions. Then, of course, we are now getting very close like a couple of weeks away from the biggest event of the year when it comes to mobile or wireless, and that's going to be Mobile World Congress starting on the 27th of February. That's going to be -- we're going to have our own booth again this year. We're going to have a lot of meetings. We're going to focus a lot on the partners, and it's going to be press releases around different kind of partners and so forth around this event. So we're very excited to go there. And this is one of the biggest events most of the business happen during the year. So we're really looking forward to this, and we're really happy to see that the pandemic is sort of gone. Last year, it was 70% of the people. I think it's going to be closer to 80%, 90% of -- back before the pandemic numbers again. So this is quite important for us. So if we summarize 2022, we have really done well with a 46% growth, even if the market conditions and semiconductor crunch has been a problem. We have done a transformative acquisition of MixComm, which really helps us now in many different ways. We have multiple orders from our Fortune 100, and we're now seeing they are going in the right direction, also getting closer and closer to a discussion about volumes in the future. We have the largest order ever with SEK 170 million SatCom. We have had our first sort of bigger 5G order of $2 million. We're also entering into the Indian 5G market. Our third Fortune 100 customer was added in May 22, working with like winners in photonics like Ayar Labs and different LiDAR companies, which we're really happy with. We have demonstrated with transparent antennas that we can really get into metaverse modules and [ tendon ] displays and hopefully then into consumer electronics via that. We have development agreements in India, as I mentioned, and the total -- the year ended in a very positive note with 210 million PRs and orders coming in from different customers. So -- and then summarizing the Q4, I mean, it's been a fantastic quarter with almost SEK 50 million in sales. and 130% growth. This is really good. We're also improving the EBITDA heavily, and we are seeing that we for next year going into a positive one in the end of the year. Again, the record order hardware orders for SATCOM things, Indian orders as well as partnerships with Chalmers. And as I mentioned, a very good pipeline and the pipeline on top of these press releasing is looking better than ever. And we are now -- the Board is more confident than ever and guided 100% -- more than 100% growth for 2023 with a positive EBITDA -- adjusted EBIT in the second half. So with that, I summarized everything, and we're going to open up for Q&A. And let me see if I can get this question will open here and we can start taking all the questions. But there's a lot of questions already, and I'm going to see how far I can read through them.

What is the view on the risk of dilution March, April, this low share price? Are you now after the big Satcom working on other financial solution without risk for dilution, should be easy to know after the deal? So yes, I mean, of course, we're always working on funding in different ways. And as a company, a growth company, there might always be growth, cash or growth that needs to be added to the company. And especially if you're making good deals and growing, it is important. Can you estimate the volumes regarding the SATCOM for first half and second half 23, first generation? Yes, I mean the volumes is sort of in the hundreds of units, and that's sort of where we get the SEK 18 million. And that's included in the order we talked about, then we probably see even more in Q4, but we don't have that order yet. About the Tier 1, can we expect further info about the project volume timelines? No, not more than I've actually mentioned now. You said the F100 #3 could be a fast track 2 year, anything about timeline progress? No. I mean we don't have the timeline for that yet, So -- but we are working on the project, and it probably is not going to be as a long project for the first part, as we've seen, like with the Fortune 100 #1. Yes, I've answered that when it comes to Fortune 100 #2. At your September, the CEO of [indiscernible] said that they were conducting Sivers funding and that they were just a few weeks away to complete it. Have they completed the Sivers funding round yet? I can't really answer that. I'm not sure, but I would say that they have a quite large cash amount from the first front as well. And is any growth company, I mean, they're constantly looking at funding. And we have to look, I think, online when they close the funding or if they've closed part of it, but they haven't announced it. They're not sure. Do you expect to have Pfizer's many chips in all space second-generation flat panel antenna or twice as many different chips? I mean we expect to have more chipsets not wise as many because this latest project compared to the Beamformer projects where it will be in the both flat panels. They are sort of fewer of them in each set, but they are also more expensive. So it's a trade-off. The numbers is less interesting, but the total trade-off is, of course, interesting. Assuming that you would only produce advanced lasers for Ayar Labs and utilize all of your current fab capacity for this, how much revenue potentially could your current capacity have? Yes. So I mean we have a current capacity for that kind of lasers, about 1 million, 2 million lasers a year. And of course, with the really high pricing for those kind of lasers, the bigger rates from 8 to 32 a race. I would say that the total yearly would be something like SEK 500 million to SEK 1 billion a year, the capacity if that goes to volume in that sense, yes. Other external expenses back to [ 33 million ] in this quarter. Why so? And how should we think about those costs going forward? Yes. So we are, of course, investing now as part of the SATCOM that we're working with. So of course, we are increasing our external expenses a little bit to carry this forward. But it's been sort of a bit of a spike, I think, in Q4 and with growing revenue and so forth, we'll also improve EBITDA as going forward. In your [ sarcomas ], you mentioned that your [ indium-phosphide] platform will have tremendous potential in a couple of years when customers ramp to volume. That just means that this first [indiscernible] now seems to be a couple of years out, i.e., more delayed? We never said when they were supposed to be ready, so they cannot be delayed per se. But if we look at the overall platform, I think in general, I mean it's going to be sort of part of sales coming in, in different aspects already sort of this year and next year. So I think that the indium-phosphide platform has sort of the tremendous potential I'm talking about is not just the customers we have now, but the pipeline we see, so I think you should focus more on the overall new pipeline coming in from multiple Fortune 100 customers on top of those we have. So that is more like that, you should see that coming. What's the status on IMEC? Yes, I mean, we are winning deals and LiDAR deals and so forth via IMEC and that work is ongoing. Despite the [indiscernible] is still ongoing issue when you see or anything more about that? Yes, I mean the Sivers project is sort of a research project. I don't expect us to see any sort of things from that more than actual research, as we've said before. In the report, we rated by having lower personnel costs during Q4 compared to the previous year, those cost control initiatives, what do your total amount in Krones in a year full year effect. I would say like something like SEK 10 million to SEK 15 million when it comes to personnel in general. And as you can see, the headcount compared to -- including the acquisition is actually more or less the same. So we're sort of making sure that we rightsized for getting as soon as possible to as soon as possible to -- and rightsizing to do that to get to a positive EBITDA there in the second half as a bit. Does Rockley Photonics expect effect, the bankruptcy effects Photonics in any way? No Photonics is not a customer to Sivers today. You're right about more than one SatCom customer coming to orders during 23. How many different Satcom customers do you have? And do you give any predictions about volumes during '23? We don't give any predictions about volumes in per se, but we have -- we're talking to, I think it's plus 5 Satcom customers for different things right now, and we expect to see more of those coming in and materialize as orders during the year. You haven't communicated anything about the new design wins. Have you got any on how do you see this pipeline for new design wins during '23? Yes, I mean we have, but we haven't communicated -- as like the Indian project is a design win, of course. But we're also reviewing the whole design win pipeline. So probably and hopefully, we can sort of come with a clearer view on sort of where everybody is on this, maybe in the yearly report or in the next quarterly report. It's a lot of moving back and forth when it comes to customers where they are and where they are not in the design win phase. And we're trying to sort of clarify this when it comes to the design wins versus design-ins and so forth. But definitely, we are winning the design wins as we speak, but we are not sort of sending that out anymore in like now we're over like the 40-plus design wins. It's not so much to talk about in that sense. Will you utilize the remaining 50 million the current loan facility? Yes, probably, we'll see. We are working on other loan facilities and so forth as well. But we probably use them if we need to, yes. Do you believe in positive EBITDA for full year '23? Yes, absolutely. That's in the forecast by the Board. Could you discuss the gross margins and other external costs in Q4 a bit? Or are these substantial levels for 23 or anything special in this? I would say that -- I mean, it depends who do exactly go into gross margin, if you take COGS versus sort of sales, I mean, of course, we have constantly said that we're going to be somewhere between 40% to 60%, and it varies between projects. And then we're also looking at -- there is often a bit less margins when it maybe comes to NRE and when it comes to hardware sales. But we're still definitely stand behind that we do will -- the gross margins will be between 40% to 60% going forward. For all space current generation panels, what do you estimate in sales for this full year '23? We haven't done a full year estimate. We have got an order and total for Q1 to Q3 is SEK 18 million so far. Would you please give us an idea how much the growth of Q4 and the Q2 growth outlook comes from MixComm and how much it comes from historic Sivers business? This -- it's a very hard question to answer because we have been integrating really, really hard. And the work that has been done between -- within the wireless business is difficult to sort of pick out because we are now using resources and sales, and it's a mix of things since we did sort of the total merger. So I think that the merger -- total merger early last year sort of have done that it's sort of very, very hard now to say what is what, in that sense. But it's been instrumental in a way that we have these different parts. So we've been able to address the market even better and capitalize on that. The extra payout for MixComm will not be paid out. This is related to the Tier 1 we already know MixComm had? We haven't gone into that and we haven't shared which customer this is connected to. So I cannot go into that. It's just -- we can just say that it has not happened in the time frame that we wanted it to happen. Here give an example of how MixComm is driving synergies. Are you selling Sivers equipment in prior mix from contracts or vice versa? Yes. So I mean, for example, technology, we now are selling into Satcom customers has been, for example, Sivers wireless, old Sivers wireless, sort of main business and knowledge and so forth. We have a rich [indiscernible] RFPD, for example, where we have -- where we are now selling 60 gigahertz things where MixComm was selling only. We have global foundries in the SATCOM business where we're now getting business via global foundries because of the partnership that MixComm had with global foundries I mean there is a long, long, long list of things. That's why this acquisition is so transformative. So yes, I mean, I can talk for a long while about that, Claus. And let's have a call separately, if you like. Do you have any plans for cut even more costs that you haven't communicated yet? No, we don't have any plans to cut more costs currently. Will you buy more shares? Yes. We'll see if I -- I actually bought back all the shares now that my divorce forced me to sell, but we'll see. I'm definitely behind the company and buy when I have the shares at least. On the sales outlook, how large part is backed up by secured contracts? I would say that something like 80% is backed up by secured contracts today. The long-term finance in Sivers, how do you reckon the change of actually doing this via a loan from an actual bank or better terms than the loan facility have today? Yes. I mean we're constantly looking at that. And I think with the positive outlook we have and positive EBITDA at the next year and -- or this year, I mean, in the second half, I think it increases the possibility, of course. When do you expect orders from Fujikura? We're getting orders from Fujikura constantly, even if there have been small orders so far. So I assume you're asking for when do we get the big order from Fujikura. Yes, I can't share that right now, but I think we'll see more and more from them. And as you see, they are pushing this hard in different aspects. When will it be official who will be the first, second and third supplier to Ayar Labs? Yes, I don't know if that will be official in that way. I think that will sort of tickle along and be qualifications and contracts and so forth. And I don't think they will go out with that. And I don't think normally anyone goes out and say that in that sense, it's more like -- more happens. Do MaxLinear, you have any concrete customers? Can you elaborate anything on this? Yes, they have concrete customers that is part of the first project that we're working on, as we mentioned before. Any news regarding 8devices, yes? I mean they have our solutions. They are selling our solutions, and we are integrated into their solutions currently. Have you got any new concrete customer following the close relationship with Global Farmers being on your shareholders? Yes. As I mentioned, for example, in -- when it comes to Photonics, which is one of the bigger parts in their stuff, we're seeing multiple customers now, and I hope to be able to share more on the partnership on that side as well going forward. When do you think the antenna on device will be in the smartphone? I'm not sure actually exactly when that will happen. But -- and even if it will happen, I mean, this is all about Primo's ability to sell it in, but they are now getting into the sort of prototype phase, which we think will be at least during this year. Then we'll see. 8devices again, January 22 communicated that you buy more than announced earlier? No, we have announced some of the things and also the hardware you've seen being sold this year has been a lot to 8devices. So yes. Do you think that the growth will keep on going in 2024 and forward? Yes. I mean we have huge markets to address, and the overall TAM is, as I mentioned, $10 billion. So we are just starting the journey and now we're seeing the effects of all the work we've done. Any news on CMI tech? Yes, I mean they are working on things, but they are still sort of small in that sense, and we're part and they're using our beam formers and so forth. What's the -- what's there a plan how to handle the loan 50 plus 50 to avoid dilution? Or if so, is the plan to intact and realistic? I mean we have plans, of course, I can't go into the exact details for refinancing and all of those different things. But I think we have realistic plans. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here. And in as regard to the next-generation CP for Cambium, we were hoping to get modules where instead of just chips? Yes. I mean, they're working on building the next-generation stuff, and we are in dialogue there and with our solutions. But no big news, so to speak, yet, where we can officially announce anything. You mentioned that Tier 1 has an update spec with new array size, including more chips, what's the potential of this compared to Cambium? Yes. I think that's -- the Tier 1 is, of course, much, much larger than Cambium and the potential and the number of chips in this case, a much larger array is, of course, very positive in that sense. Have you come to how big the volumes -- how you're going to handle the volumes for the Fortune 100? No, I mean we are in discussions with them how to handle them. And of course, we need to build a fab. And if that fab is going to be placed in the U.K. or in the U.S., we don't really know. But I think we have a very good handle. And I think during 2023, that's -- this is the year where we'll see this, I would say. It's kind of difficult to find out based on the report by giving an estimate, yes, what turnover revenue do we need to reach to breakeven, it's kind of difficult to find on the base of the report, but given that estimate, yes, what turnover revenue do we need to reach breakeven? So as we said, I mean, if you look at the second half and you look at we're saying that we're going to have over 100% growth, I think that's sort of an answer in there. I don't want to give you an exact number, but you can look basically on what we are -- what we have sold now and what we need to grow and what we're talking about in that sense. Can you talk about the importance of the Cosmos test bed? I'm not sure if I even know that -- it might not be very important if I don't know about the Cosmos test bed, I'm sorry. When do you think the N10 device? And do you think that yes, to answer that. Yes, we're seeing regarding the latest development, the contract with the Indian mobile operator, how do you estimate the chance that this moves to volume manufacturing how big will it? How long will it take? It's a bit hard to say how long this first project is actually going to be sort of done and delivered from our side early this year. But I think that it's going to be large volumes, we think, but this customer is one or many. I don't think this is the largest customer, there are much bigger operators that we’ll address as well. So let us come back to how that will look like. Any new products coming up during this year? There are new products constantly coming out in the sense. But right now, I think we are very focused on all the products we've built and all the customer projects we have and so forth. So I think for now, when it comes to Satcom and 5G, we are very set, and we have sort of a portfolio which will reach very, very far. And the same thing for what we've been announcing for the Photonics business. So much going on, will there be a new CMD during '23? Yes, of course. But normally, it takes a year between the Capital Markets Day. So that will probably be after summer. With the Indian development order, you are integrated with the Intel baseline, do you also have the curves and partnership with Intel? Not, as I can see in that sense right now. But of course, we are part of the Ayar Labs where Intel is a big vendor as well. Is there get global foundries could help our building capacity for Photonics business in case of an oil pilot line, anything you have talked about with them? I mean, Global Foundries as a partner is one very interesting partner in this sense. And especially with the U.S. Ship Act, I don't see that being a negative thing if we would work with them in any way. In the Q 2 webinar, you announced that you have more [indiscernible] how is it going for these customers? It's going really well. We're in talks with them. We are estimating to get more sales from them going forward, and it's still ongoing. Richardson order highlights are very important when you acquired MixComm. Are you happy so far? Yes, I think the Richardson is now starting to pay off. We're seeing some sort of medium orders and small orders and from sort of unexpected side type of customers that's coming in. So definitely, I think that it's an important piece for us even if it's not sort of one of the most important things, but it's an important piece. If the first [indiscernible] comes into fruition, do you think you will be able to reveal the name of the same time? It all depends a bit, as I said before. If they are just buying lasers from us and we sign a contract, no, but if they would be a co-investor in a fab or something like that, then the name will be released. Is the bonus connected to Tier 1 order repeater? We haven't gone out and told what the sort of earn-out was connected to, but now it's not -- doesn't matter anymore because now it's not in fruition sort of say. How do you view the risk of competing technologies when it comes to the Fortune 100 customer? I would say that the last message we got; they want us to be the supplier. And so they could have second source of first source. But still, I mean we are chosen as a supplier in that sense. So I'm not -- I don't have any fear of being sidelined or no new cheaper technology in that sense. I mean, they need to do the indium-phosphide lasers as we use. Is it time for the 5G to take speed now? Yes, I think -- I mean, India is a good example where things are happening. We're seeing things happening also in Europe now a bit more and so forth. So yes, as we said, it's been sort of another year of delay in that part, but it's part of the growth story that we're now presenting as well, of course. What is the Fortune 100 customers upside in selecting Sivers and potentially newly built fab when they can select, for example, Lumentum that assist the manufacturing infrastructure and contract manufacturers? I don't know what they've done with Lumentum in that sense. But we know that we have been able to provide something that nobody else has been able to provide on indium phosphide. I don't know actually exactly what Lumentum’s capacity on indium phosphide is. But I assume that they've chosen us because they like our technology and what we're doing. And it's been very clear just from the last meeting we had with them that they're very happy with what we provide. Any news regarding AirVine rumors tells us that they are moving everything in-house now will not affect our relationship with them or will they still be buying from you? I don't know who's spreading that kind of rumors. There was an e-mail or a sort of a note, long, long time ago as like 2 years ago where they said that they would develop certain things in-house, but that was the baseband part of the solution. And in the discussions with us, they are definitely looking at more and more things to buy, and they're even actually buying more things now for other solutions. So they have been buying even down 10 actually for some of their partners right now. So no, we don't see anything when it comes to AirVine in that direction on the contrary. Richardson, it's on question again. We already heard. Could your products be in Apple's products in the future? Yes, why not? I mean, Apple is doing a lot of things that we are doing. So why not. How large do you think the radar side might be? It's hard to say, but we are seeing more and more companies, and I think you will see other orders around that in the future and what's actually going on. How often do you have meetings with F100s, -- how many people attend? I mean we constantly have weekly sort of technology meetings, then we have other meetings coming now and then when it comes to commercials and so forth and depending on RFQs and everything we are talking about. So it's quite often. In the technology meetings, we have sometimes up to 30 people, and I think that will also change now going into the next phase being even more people in the future. Do you think AirVine can become an elephant? Yes, I think AirVine can be really, really big. But of course, they are a start-up and they are starting up at sense. But I think they can definitely be and that -- if you look at the guy who is running that company right now, he has been known to exit into bigger companies and so forth. So in my mind, Cisco could be a buyer of AirVine in the future. And then, of course, it's a big elephant. Do you think that you are one step ahead of your laser competitors like Ayar Labs? Yes, I think so. We have been the first company who have demoed 8 and 32 arrays and all of those things. So I definitely think so, and that is the message we're getting as well. Are there any new verticals that you are getting into outside 5G second Photonics radar or LIDAR? I mean there are constantly new type of verticals that are popping up that we can reuse our technology in. Like I mean, there are -- like now that Fujikura have signed a deal with sort of streaming companies and so forth. So I think that the portfolio we have is very well fitted for all of these mega trends, and there is a huge enough market to be part of that. So we don't need to focus on anything behind more than we actually do. So… Okay. So last question now here. How long time for a pilot line? I mean we basically have so we can run pilot things within the current fab -- but to build up a larger pilot line, we definitely need to build a fab and then duplicate that to do the volumes. But doing piloting we can also do in-house in that sense. SatCom customers already got the question. Any volumes order from AirVine? Yes, we're getting volumes ordered from AirVine for their launch, and they are now launching in the Mobile World Congress. Okay. I think we've done an hour now. So I have to thank you all. Thank you so much for listening in, and it's been a pleasure, and please follow us on the next thing what's going to happen in Mobile World Congress and others. Thank you so much. Bye-bye.