St. James's Place plc (STJ) Earnings Call Transcript
July 27, 2023
Earnings Call Speaker Segments
Good morning, and welcome to St. James's Place 2020 Half Year Results live Q&A session. Today's session is hosted by Andrew Croft, Chief Executive Officer; and Craig Gentle, Chief Financial Officer [Indiscernible] joined by colleagues on the St. James's Place executive team. I'll now hand over to Andrew Croft.
Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining. You will have seen the results this morning and the analyst video that we announced earlier. As the operator just said, as usual, I'm joined here by my full executive team for the Q&A session. I will share and hand out the questions that have come in. So I think that probably takes us to the first question, please.
[Operator Instructions] First question today comes from Andrew Sinclair with Bank of America.
Three from me as usual, please. First was just on the charge cap. Why only bonds and pensions? Is this going to be rolled out to trust and ISAs as well in the future or what makes bonds and pensions different and are there any other elements of charges you're considering amending? That's question one. Second question was just on the Academy, and really good number of graduates in H1. But the number that are actually in the Academy now seems to have slightly reduced year-to-date, still quite a bit below previous peak levels. Just given the importance of the Academy to adviser growth, what needs to happen to really drive those numbers higher in the Academy? Last question two. And third was just on your customers and your clients, I just really wondered if you can give us any color on roughly what proportion of your clients have a mortgage just to get an idea of what higher mortgage costs might mean for your customer base?
I'll take the charges cap and the customers and mortgages, and I'll hand over to Pete Edwards on the cap. On the charges cap because we have different product sets, if you like, there are different challenges in each of the individual product sets. And part of the charge cap that we've introduced is to introduce more consistency between those individual products. So that's hopefully that on the customer clients. So I don't know the exact answer to the number of clients who had mortgages. And we sort of need to remember as well, we've got pretty close to a million clients, different age groups, different demographics. I would guess that our younger clients will have mortgages. Our older clients will be mortgage free. So I can't give you specifc answer [Indiscernible] And on the Academy, Pete?
Yeah. I think what's important to remember is that the number of people in the Academy fluctuates over time as advisors graduate and new boys are going in the Academy. This is based on the graduation of individuals. Now training is completed at a pace which suits the individual. They graduate any time throughout the year rather than a specific point in time. So as we continue to improve the quality and training support that we give people at the Academy, this potentially increases the pace with advisers [Indiscernible] competent, sustainable and successful and therefore, can graduate. So whilst it may fluctuate throughout the year, we're very confident that the number of advisers in Academy at any more time is sufficient to support on our growth industry.
Our next question comes from David McCann with Numis.
Yes, a couple for me. So Andrew, I think you mentioned during your part of the prepared remarks that I think it was GBP 1 billion. I might be wrong in the add number, but you certainly referenced a large number of flows kind of going into Flagstone by the cash management offering. And they obviously aren't reflecting your assets under management. So I guess a few questions related to that. I mean what do you think it takes for investors to actually get the confidence to actually invest in that again? I mean, that's obviously a broader question around that. But this is obviously a good deal capture, you knew ecosystem, but what does it take back to get invested? But what perhaps the short-term, why is that going into cash management product rather than, say, government bond fund or similar low-risk assets? And what is it the clients are referring about the cash offering versus your fund offering where, obviously, you would see the flows and we see the charges? That's the first set of questions. The second one was really around Asia. Good to see you reiterate that you still think you can get to the breakeven -- cash breakeven target for 2025. In the Capital Markets Day, you did on this a few years ago now, you said the way you were going to get there was to get to about GBP 5 billion of funds under management. So really gave you a thought to scale to kind of get to that level. Obviously, we're still quite a long way off that. So it's now more about a cost reduction story to get there in a couple of years' time? And where do you think the scale can realistically get to, if it's not the GBP 5 billion previously mentioned?
Okay. Thank you, David. On the Flagstone, I'll start, and I'm just going to hand over to Pete as well, we have more sort of evidence of what partners are doing. So look, when will that cash come into investments since it's a really hard one to call, isn't it? But I would say that when interest rates sort of reach their peak and start hopefully on a more downward trajectory, then equity investing will become more attractive again. And that's probably when we'll see that coming in. And Pete, just on a sort of partner point of view, you want to (crosstalk)
Yes, certainly. And I think the important thing to remember about the way a partner and client relationship works is, it's something that's built over a sustained period of time. Clients will have different points in the life of vendors on the journey there on where they are prepared to move assets from cash into investments or from property into investments. I think the Flagstone [Indiscernible] partnership of brilliant opportunities to allow clients to put money in a place where they can act on the time that suits them to enter the market. So I think [Indiscernible] that the partnership gives this fall in price set to their clients and giving the clients the confidence that the long-term relationship can adapt to whatever earnings are in particular during the individual clients and all.
And on Asia, I'll just pass it on to [Indiscernible] Pete?
I think we will still point to the May, 2021 Capital Markets Day as a guidance we give on Asia. This year, we've opened Dubai, which I think gives us confidence around that target, and we've done some restructuring to Shanghai and just some partnership restructuring in Asia. So there no cost reduction, that's absolutely right. But it's still fundamentally a growth story in line with the May, 2021 stay with Dubai now on is true.
Operator, can we have the next question, please?
We now turn to Andrew Baker with Citi.
Three for me, please. The first is on gross flows. So you highlighted sort of pressure from 2 sources: one, lower discretionary cash, leading to obviously lower ISA flows. And then two, I guess, clients seeking the alternative investments that you just talked about. As you're looking forward, which one of those 2 sources do you see as greater pressure on gross flow growth going forward? And then second, just back on the fee charging changes. Just curious, was it purely an internal SJP decision? Or is there any direct influence from the regulator? And do you expect peers to take similar actions here? And then thirdly, related to this, how are you thinking about the development of the margin on the mature FUM over time as more of the pension business sort of moves to the 10-year-plus period? Do you expect mix changes to, I guess, structurally drive the margin low over time? Or are you expecting that margin to be relatively stable?
Yes. Thank you, Andrew. I'm going to hand the margin question over to Craig as I'm sure you would expect. But on the gross flows, if you look at it by product line, if you like, and clearly, where customers in the first half of the year was in unit trust and ISA flows. And that is the more discretionary investment. If people have limited capacity to invest, that's the area that's going to be impacted first. But again, that's just something that's quite interesting if -- well, for me, I found it quite interesting. Looking at the data, it's actually people doing single contributions at the beginning of the tax year. You saw doing that maximum single contribution of 2,000. For instance, it's down 32% this year. But the opposite side of that is that individuals using their maximum monthly contribution to ISAs were actually gone up by 9%. And -- so reading that into that, you've seen the people rather than doing 20,000 are going into more monthly contributions. And I think, again, that is probably the sort of disposable income type question. If you look at pensions, pension flows continues to be resilient. And that's been saving for their long-term retirement and that consolidation piece going on. And again, the investment bond flows remain robust and resilient, mainly driven around the [Indiscernible]. So as a unit trust [Indiscernible] in case discretionary points, hopefully, that helps. And again, Capital Markets is seeing, is considerable flows into cash losses. So in the past, you wouldn't be [Indiscernible] on the cash flow. So today, you can earn a reasonable sum, albeit that is still being voted by inflation. And as I said, we're also seeing increase into our cash holdings. Craig, do you want to talk about the margin? Maybe I'll talk about what it's a internal.
Yes. Okay. Hi, Andrew. I think you're right in as much as it's a mathematical inevitability that is more business on the books and you share us and it's nmot 10-year thresholds, but the effect of moving from 125, will have the effect you described. But it's worth remembering that the scale of funds under management together with the amount that comes either out of the gestation offer or in straight through as new business has quite a significant dampening effect on the way in which that works. So I think the easy answer to your question is yes, over time, you will see that margin fall, but it will be much slower than you might imagine if you just think of it as a single feature within the way in which funds under managements will develop in the future. Of course, without stays in the obvious, although that margin percentage might change funds under management, obviously grow as a result of both retention and new business.
Thank you, Craig. On the first question, he was saying, is this an internal discretionary move? Yes, absolutely, it's an internal discretionary move. Consumer easy programs catalyst to looking at this. And as we said, it rewards long-term investment, it makes us more competitive in the pensions and bonds environment. And as I think I always said to Andrew Sinclair's question, it reduces some of the inconsistencies in charges of [Indiscernible]. But yes, it's an internal strategy decision. Operator, could we go to the next set of questions for some?
Our next question comes from Andrew Crean with Autonomous.
Two questions. Firstly, you said that when the inflation rate comes down, you reached the 5% expense growth target. Can you tell us specifically what inflation rate you're thinking of which would allow you to grow expenses by 95%? And then coming back on to this charging question. What comfort can you give us that this is the one and only action you'll be taking on charges as opposed to thinking of this maybe at thin end of the wage?
I'll pick up the second question first. It's impossible to say that there's never ben -- ever been a move again on charges. We have to be acting what's going in the marketplace to make sure that we will always remain invested. So I can't give you 100% reassurance there, Andrew. On the inflation question, yes, I'll probably repeat what I said back in February, which is that we do have a very strong appetite [Indiscernible] ambitions move back down to 5% that we've set out in our plan. I did use the expression of something like in February when [Indiscernible] normalizes line, I think I clarify and that's to saying when inflation falls to a level that's in line with the government target and the margin for that is that, that was the inflationary environment when we set the 2025 plan. And so getting back into that source of range, will enable us to start planning in a way that we expect it to be able to plan without those inflationary pressures.
Can I just come back (crosstalk)
Yes.
Should I come back on the first question very quickly? And when you say you can't give [Indiscernible] yes, of course, you can't give a guarantee over a 5, 10-year period, but there's nothing -- what I'm after is, is there anything further in the pipes you're thinking about currently?
Look, we made the announcement this morning, Andrew. So if you know -- if you know the bits and pieces that we were ready to announce, we'll be announcing. Operator, can we have the next question, please?
We now turn to Nasib Ahmed with UBS.
So you said you're still comfortable with the targets that you set in 2021. I take the comment on the cost base. But on the top line growth of 10%, what makes you still comfortable with the 10% new business growth? And also the 95% retention target, do you expect that to come down to 95% or go lower in the current environment? And then second couple of -- well, 2 questions on the impact of higher interest rates on the partner loans. So does the rate on the partner loans increase as a result of higher rates? And do you expect greater write-offs? I know you've got 5 bps over the last 10 years, but do you expect more pressure there? And does the valuation of the businesses that the partners are buying change, given that you use the DCM method, are those valuations much lower now in a higher rate environment?
That maybe -- let me take the 2025 targets and then pass over to Craig on the part of the loans. So 2025 is still far away. This time last year, we were well ahead of our 2025 targets. We all know that the challenging environment we are in. In terms of retention, it's a very easy one. We're still exceeding our 95% retention. And there's nothing to suggest that should change. And now we've got a bit of catching up to do on the gross [Indiscernible] target over the next 2.5 years. But as I said, the GBP 1 billion in that Flagstone -- sorry, additional GBP 1 billion in our third-party cash portal. We remain confident of the need for advisers to remain confident of the size of the market, we remain confident in growing the partnership. And we remain confident in [Indiscernible] growing the partnership and we remain confident in helping the partners grow their businesses. So at this point in time, we're very, very comfortable with this, I guess. Craig, do you want to pick up the point on loans?
On the interest point. Yes. So yes, clearly, interest rates have an impact on any lending situation, but that one of the things I would emphasize here is that -- these are business loans. These are planned business loans to well-run organizations. And one of the things that is worth having in mind is that we have an average loan to value ratio of somewhere in the region of 30%, which gives you a good sense. I mean, it's not a direct indication of gearing within those businesses, but it gives you a good indication of the -- I suppose, a degree of caution in a way some of that lending is structured. I think it's very obvious that anyone in receipt of one of those loans would be very happy to see interest rates going down, but it would be easy to reemphasize the impact that, that has on businesses that are essentially refining the partner network is doing incredibly well. And the fact that markets are more stable now than they have been in the past is also a positive.
Next set of questions, please.
Our next question comes from Rhea Shah with Deutsche Bank.
So 3 questions from me. Just the first one around Dubai. Does this open up to flows and business from all of the Middle East, or is it just Dubai specific? And when do you expect to break even over here? Is it the same time line as the rest of Asia, or is it a bit further away? And then second around the advisers. I think you had a net increase of 73 advisers and 169 of this were grads. So implicitly, I think, around 100 advisers left the business. Is this a normal attrition rate? Are they just retiring advisers? Or are they people going to peers and competitors? And then just thirdly, on consumer duty, away from any actions you could take in the future on charges? Is there anything else you're doing on consumer duty that is increasing your cost base?
Look, I'm going to pass the adviser question to Peter and the Dubai branch on [Indiscernible] but now you just take a consumer duty. First of all, the consumer duty has been after all businesses to emphasize it's not obviously the specific sort of our sector. I think it's affecting something like 50 [Indiscernible] and businesses -- the larger scope. We have a major program of workers. We've had over 100 people working on it on a daily basis [Indiscernible] 400 people working at some point during the day, but you have to look at absolutely and credit everything. The cost of all that is within our expense targets section, didn't see any additional expenses there. And we have to change and opt to things, improve things. If I just gave an example of a piece of work under consumer understanding, we've been working with a third party. I think I can talk to say who they are [Indiscernible] list of council, helping us working with subsets clients looking at the major sort of literature and points of communication that we do with clients and understanding how those bits corresponce land with clients and how we can make those better and improved to client experience. Those are some ofthe sort of stuff that's been going on in the organization. But it has been as it has the whole sector being a major, major undertaking. And that hopefully gives you that one. On advisers, Pete, do you want to just pick up the advisers?
Yes. Thank you, Andrew. We have seen no significant change [Indiscernible] in retention of people within the partnership. We consistently manage the balance between long-term industry professionals that [Indiscernible] financial services in grassroots [Indiscernible] we've seen this develop over the years from a dependence solely on industry improvements across now to the blended approach we have. We've not felt any significant impact from competitors whilst we would never be a sleep at the wheel here and say things for granted. The facts are that the St. James Place partnership is still less places to grow face-to-face of our business in the U.K., and we don't see that changing any time soon. The attrition rate of the partnership just maintains its same percentage it has for a number of years. But that is a combination of factors for people who are taking business and purchase and design of the business, we are excited that this isn't necessarily the right future for them, but we have no [Indiscernible] pressure there.
Thank you, Pete. And the Dubai question.
Yes. Hi Rhea. So 2 aspects. One, on the breakeven point, we set through Dubai, through the DFSA and there is some opportunity with it in terms of that license to service clients from around the GCC. So we have to stay obviously within our license, but yes, it does open up the opportunity around that area to [Indiscernible] And we may need to just reflect on the name, the Asia operations that's [Indiscernible].
Operator, could we have a next set of questions, please.
Our next question comes from Ben Bathurst with RBC.
I've got 2 questions, if I may. Starting with a follow-up on the cash portal. I think you mentioned the GBP 1 billion of extra flows on to Flagstone in the first half. Can I just ask for context what the total level of SJP client cash flows into the Flagstone platform was [Indiscernible] going withdrawals. I just wondered what the early house view on the potential impact this could have on the attractiveness of pensions really as a savings vehicle for your clients in the future?
Yes. Thank you, Ben. I'm going to pass over to Ian MacKenzie on the pension side. On the cash, a couple of points here that just remember that the Flagstone piece is just where we're helping clients with cash clients or have other places, they've got cash as well. So it's sort of a difficult question. I think I'm reluctant to give you a total number only because I don't want to give out commercial data of Flagstone [Indiscernible] But you can probably assume it's more than GBP 1 billion. So I can't be more specific there. On the consultation, if any, Ian?
In fact, thanks Ben for your question and interesting consultation as you see to the government, I mean, view on it at the moment is okay, this is different aspects of pensions living more complexity than we think [Indiscernible] So I'm going to stand back on this, that means more composition of advisers, more engagement, more need for clients, particularly [Indiscernible] structure their investments and what the financial plans are looking at [Indiscernible] would be that positive because it actually it arise those conversations opportunities for that. I mean, nothing takes away from the [Indiscernible] in the long-term and what was published in terms of consultation. So there's our initial [Indiscernible].
Could we have the next question, please.
Our next question comes from Larissa Deventer Van Deventer with Barclays.
Three quick ones from me, please. The first one, on expense growth. It was well below the long-term it's in the first half in -- growth in the first half, but you're still sticking to the 8% for the second. Just wondering what will drive the higher expenses in the second half? And then related to that, what levers you can pull to continue to contain them if inflation remains elevated? And then on the fee charges, are you able to be specific on the amount of funds under management that is impacted? And then thirdly, back to the original question on clients that have a mortgage. I understood that you don't track the data specifically, but would you be able to give an indication of how many customers you have that under the age of 50?
Yes, thank you for your questions. I'm just going to try and repeat -- we lost the line a little bit there. I think the first question was why was expense growth only 2% when we're talking about higher? I think the answer to that is we'll see with a tax rate change, but the post tax cash number with the expenses is lower because of the tax rate to get on expenses that remain [Indiscernible]. I think your -- the second question was asking around -- specific on the FUM impacted by the charges cap. I think we'll take other way and if we can provide additional disclosure, so that if people are finding helpful, we can put it on the website, but I don't have a number we're looking to have. And I think the third one you ask is how many clients we have under the age of 50? And [Indiscernible] just handed me a note 111,000 clients under the age of 50.
Of a client base (crosstalk)
That's about 100%. Yes, about 10% and 9%, 10%.
Thank you very much.
That -- actually, sorry, you just retracts that.. We come back to [Indiscernible] and did my briefing. Could we have the next set of questions?
Our next question comes from Enrico Bolzoni with JPMorgan.
One on Consumer duty. I'm just thinking that often one of the aspects of advice, which is criticized are the initial fees that advisers charge to their clients. I was just wondering whether you foresee any pressure on this component of revenues, which would impact not just you, but also the departments as well, independent financial adviser there. Do you think there's going to be any pressure and whether this might change the incentive that advisers have to acquire new businesses? The second question is just on consensus on gross flows for 2024, looks pretty high because it's close to GBP 19 billion. I was just wondering whether you are comfortable with that? And my final question is on shareholder interest that clearly is going up. Can you give us an idea of what do you expect for full-year '24?
[Indiscernible]
The final question was on the shareholder interest. If you can give some guidance on what to expect for 2024?
Okay, thank you. So let me pick up the consumer duty one first. I think as I said earlier, it's really, really large program of work, a lot of people working on it. And we've looked at every part of our business through the lens of consumer duty and where changes need to be made, we made those changes. So it will affect anything else and disrupt consumer dity. On consensus in the shareholder [Indiscernible] Yes, the line is a bit cracking. Any questions on consensus on [Indiscernible]. This one is '24. I think it's a bit early to give guidance on that. We're in the middle of a period that is probably in terms of headwinds and lack of confidence out there, last a little longer than we might have anticipated back in February. So I think the only real answer I can give to that is that I think we'll guide closer to the time where possible, so much can change between now and the end of this half. I think it would be unwise to try and put a mark on them on next year. I mean, we've sort of said that if we think about this year, it's difficult to guide for the second half, but if you assume it's going to stay where they are [Indiscernible] stays where it is and everything else stays equal. The second half could be the same as the first half. But as I would always say, it's remarkable how quickly things can change when there's a catalyst for improvement, but they're calling when that catalyst might be is not something I'm able to do at this stage. And I think the final one was on shareholder interest. It's an interesting question because I think the answer without sounding is if I'm dodging the question, is it depends what are the interest rates. So I think you would have to think of your own house view on where you think rates are going to land for this year. I think most people agree they will think all their time. But it could be the interest rates are [Indiscernible] inflation has been. And so my only suggestion is that you take your own view of what you think the interest rates might do and use this year as a base modeling period. What I have said is that if rates stay where they are during the course of second half, our total shareholder interest for the year, and this is after tax, of course, will be somewhere in the region of GBP 60 million.
Okay, thank you. And then just coming back to the previous question on number of funds of the age 55, it's around 350,000. Could we take the next question, please.
Our next question comes from Greg Simpson [phonetics]with BNP Paribas. ^Unknown Analyst^ I've got 3 questions, please. The first is the broaded market, I think, shows a bit of a resurgence in annuity volumes in the U.K. recently with higher rates. Are they becoming a more prevalent conversation with your own pension clients? I'm just conscious that the previous trend of pension staying and invested and drawdown has been quite favorable for advisers in general? Second question would be one of your peers, EverLand Partners seems to have quite strong growth in professional services. Is there any logic or interest in SJP moving into accountancy, tax advice, legal services to kind of build up nonmarket revenues and expand the client reach? And then thirdly, just a bit more on artificial intelligence. Is there any kind of cost efficiencies within the business that you think could be addressed for better automation? And also, is there any thoughts on whether AI could eventually disrupt the role of a face-to-face adviser through online platforms?
So 3 different questions there. On artificial intelligence [Indiscernible] efficiencies? Yes. And I'm just going to hand over to Ian MacKenzie, just to talk to you now some of the things we're doing in the business.
Thanks, Andrew, and thanks, Greg, for the question. I mean, AI, I think, in all businesses will be a big part of moving ahead. I think everyone had a conversation around it. In terms of where we are, we've got a few pilots in play, but we're exploring, and we are seeing work, which improves the efficiency of the business. So in our partner practices, we have a number of practices, piloting what we call a replace system, which a genuine AI not some sort of great flow chart, a genuine AI [Indiscernible] learning model, 4G machine learning model is underpinning it. And they're using that as part of how they streamline their back office and help construct the advisers to then deliver to the clients, progression reports and validated reports actually are potentially up to an [Indiscernible] and which is significant in terms of how that goes forward and everything else. And you also touched on the [Indiscernible] and the impact on that, I am absolutely confident that actually we'll have AI [Indiscernible] and the winning formula here is that combination of leading technology driven by data analytics AI to help the advisers spend time on what they're actually growing at, which is a face-to-face relationship piece, the emotional piece, the dreams and goals of what financial party are all about. So for me, actually, it's a win-win as we harness the AI [Indiscernible]. So hopefully that gives some insight into where we are and what we're actually doing on it.
On annuity, we don't manufacture annuity. I think, as you know, but we do advise on annuities. And I'm sure there are more conversations going on with annuities, but we're not seeing any sort of steady pickup [Indiscernible] in the numbers. And then on the question about, would we be interested in going into professional services? I think the short answer to that is no [Indiscernible] And could we have the next question, please.
Our final question today comes from Ashik Mussadi with Morgan Stanley.
Just a couple of questions. I mean, first of all, just a clarification. I guess your guidance on Asia is pretty clear that the breakeven still remains as per the original plan. But how do we think about the phase-in of that, especially given the significant pickup in Asian cost for first half? So how do we think about second half and next year would be helpful? And secondly, I mean, see, a bit of a big picture question. I mean, interest rates have gone up materially in U.K. I mean, we are sitting at 5%. And what I hear is we can invest into those bonds at like risk free. So I mean, have you seen agents talking about that there is lack of interest from clients, et cetera, just because one can get 5% tax-free from bonds. So why bother about putting in equity markets? So have you seen any such commentary, et cetera, or from the partners, et cetera? And is that -- could that be a bit of a reason of the slowdown in volumes? Or is it just macroeconomic backdrop? I mean, I completely appreciate macroeconomic backdrop is no good with inflation, et cetera. But just wanting to get a bit of color is higher interest rate, a bit of a drag on flows as well?
I'll probably pick up the second one first, and then hand to a combination of Craig and Ian on how the expense [Indiscernible] over the next few years [Indiscernible]. I think going right back to where we started, actually, I have no doubt that higher interest rates is having [Indiscernible]. So we're seeing that, as I said, with our coming flows into Flagstone. I think from recollection, there was something GBP 517.8 billion put into cash loss is in the month of April. So it's something we're seeing across the market. And I think people are pausing investment, parking it to earn a return on interest. But I think as I said earlier, once we reach the peak of the interest rates pinnacle, and they start coming down, I think that will give people confidence to go back into the markets [Indiscernible] a return that is not beating inflation [Indiscernible] but I understand sort of where they are. On the -- downward costs? Yes. So I think [Indiscernible] says quite right that was obviously spend during the first half that was associated with the restructuring and rationalization costs. Ian mentioned a little earlier on the call, that's obviously one-off. So the guidance we've given is that, in the net investments in Asia for current year be somewhere in the region of GBP 17 million. But obviously, treating a lump of that as one-off means that it's a slightly lower starting point as you move into '24. So no doubt, as I said in the presentation that Asia has experienced same operating environment that the rest of the group has experienced the way I would think about some of the restructuring that is taking out some of the costs that would not have yield is the result that we're looking for and reprogrammed that into different ways of working. And Dubai is one such example that show every sign of delivering what it is we want to see delivered in the age business. So GBP 17 million, I think, is your answer for the current year. Is that the end of [Indiscernible] or another one?
We have no more registered questions.
Okay, thank you. Look, thank you everyone, for your time and [Indiscernible] we said in the CEO statement, seing such economic and challenging backdrop, but we see the businesses I think sort of performed robustly in the first half of the year but have a good remain of the day. Thank you very much.
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