Teneo AI AB (publ) (TENEO) Earnings Call Transcript

Good morning, all. It's 9:00. I think we will go ahead and start. I want to just make sure that you all understand that this is being recorded. So we are all aware of that. And thank you very much for attending our Q2 report at Teneo AI. This is almost a year of being Teneo AI rather than Artificial Solutions. Very excited to present this report and what's happening around us as we speak. So my name is Per Ottosson. I am the CEO of the company since about 4 years back. And Fredrik, the CFO, similar, also came in at the same time. And we're here to present to you today. I'll start and then Fredrik will dive a bit deeper into the numbers. So I want to start with the market update. But here's -- we've seen, at Teneo, another quarter of great year-over-year growth. We have a fantastic pipeline development and great gross margin development. But maybe more importantly is what's happened in the industry over the summer. So I'm going to start with that and talk a bit more about that. We, at Teneo, have been preaching the benefits of making it easy for customers to reach your customer care, your support, your customer experience organization. And we believe that, that is through the phone. And what we've seen during the summer is that the phone has had a renaissance and has sort of popped up again as being the most important way to provide service to customers. Chat is a great way to talk to, for example, your personal AI agent. I chat with Gemini, ChatGPT, et cetera, all the time. But it's not a great way to get service for customers. So if I'm a customer of, let's say, Telia and I go in and chat, you'll find that the chat is very limited. And there's many reasons for that. There's security reasons, the format itself is difficult, and it's also how much resource has been added to actually building a great chat in terms of connecting the back-end systems, which again has to do with security and the pain of making it secure. So chat is not really the way that the world is going forward, we've been preaching, and this summer has really validated that. And then you can also say, just download our app and you'll get the support through the app, but downloading another app with 99 apps on your mobile phone is also not the way to go. So phone is having a big moment right now. And this small Swedish company, Teneo AI, with a great team in Spain, in the U.S., and in Sweden, have built a solution, which is the best in the industry when it comes to automating phone calls. So let's start with what's happened in the industry. So there's a company that only does research in the Contact Center industry. Again, the Contact Center industry is this industry where you have software that receives the phone calls, routes it to the right person, records, et cetera, and does all the stuff with the phone call itself. And that industry, the leader in that industry is Genesys. And the leading conversational analyst in that space is DMG Consulting. And in the latest DMG Conversational AI Report that Donna Fluss publishes. Donna is the CEO of that company or the President of the DMG Consulting company. She says that CAI is replacing legacy IVR at pace. What does that mean? That means that going from press 1, press 2, press 3 to reach end voice, to reach support is something that people are no longer wanting to do. And we've been preaching this, of course, for a few years. But what we see now is that there's real solid interest. We see it in our pipeline, but we also, of course, see it in this report, where she says that there's a doubling in customers that are going to replace keypad with Ringm IVR, which is a conversational AI, so a way to speak. Welcome to Teneo AI. How can I help you today? So you're seeing a big increase in that. Also, of course, multimodal voice, so having voice on both sides and being able to use voice, but also get a WhatsApp maybe or get a confirmation on the iMessage. That's also quite important, also something we've been preaching and using for the last few years. So very excited to see that. DMG Consulting was rated the best independent research and audit firm in this small niche called Contact Center. This is obviously not the Gartners, the Forresters, these are focused only on one thing. They're focused on the Contact Center. So somebody that a great amount of people listen to in the Contact Center industry. What they also did during the summer, which then again supports the fact that I say we're leading in the space, is they did a report on CAI companies and rated the companies. And one of the companies they rated is a company called Teneo. And in Teneo AI, we won in all categories. So we were the best vendor in all categories. This research is a technical deep dive, together with our team, but it's also interviews, deep interviews with 5 of our customers. And she's done the same -- sorry, her team has done the same across many different vendors. There's vendors like Cognigy, which we're going to talk a bit more about; vendors like Google, Microsoft, Amazon, et cetera, in that, and we ranked #1. We had a perfect 5 in all these different categories that you see here. So very, very proud of that. But of course, very strong testament to what we do. This is a researcher that is used by companies like Genesys, which is a leader in the Contact Center industry and also frequently cited by them in their market communication. I missed putting this in the presentation, which is on the web, but we do have a webinar with Donna on September 3, for those who are interested in hearing more, and also hearing how you can deliver real return on investment with conversational AI, so with deploying Teneo technology. It's a bit of a long URL there, but you can just Google Teneo, DMG and webinar, and you will find it on the web as well. So I recommend you to tune into that. So that's something that's very key to us. Now the second key thing is that Genesys, that we started partnering with at the tail end of Q4, has really developed into a strong partnership together with us. So Genesys is the biggest Contact Center provider. #2 in this space is NiCE, nice and compact. And then #3 is, in our space, the enterprise space, is AWS Connect. We work with Genesys and AWS Connect. There's good reasons for that, because we have a very -- I just see a lady shared an easy link in the chat, if you want to click and join that webinar on September 3. So Genesys is the biggest. AWS Connect is #3. We work intentionally with those 2 because we complement their offering. So if you look at Genesys, we have a synergistic integration. Our technology integrates with their technology without taking the call out of their platform. And that's key. Everybody else is trying to move the call out of their platform. And that leaves the customer without statistics, without all the analytics, et cetera, and it's not a good solution for the customer. Obviously, also not a good solution for Genesys. We don't -- we keep the call within the platform. We also are aligned in terms of the commercial model and how this grows for their salespeople. So we drive what's called Genesys AI experience tokens when they sell us through their AppFoundry, which is their marketplace. We're collaborating now with key regional leaders, but also the CSMs or the customer service managers, the people that make sure that the customers are happy, but also with the account executives, of course. And we have several campaigns ongoing. We have 162 customers that we have started working on together with them. So we're looking at their biggest customers, the ones that have more than 1 million phone calls a month, and are working together with them to give those customers the experience that they deserve as well. So very happy with that. And the real crown jewel that happened in the last few weeks is that we were invited to speak at the Genesys Experience event in Nashville, which is their big customer event, and we were invited to speak on stage there, which is quite key for us as an AppFoundry partner to be able to do that. So very happy with what's the development within Genesys in the last few -- in Q2, but also during the summer. Now in this space, the other thing that happened is that there was a big acquisition. There was an acquisition of Cognigy. Now Cognigy is a company that is building technology the same way that we build technology. And this is a validation that you're not going to be able to just take OpenAI, ChatGPT, Gemini or Amazon Bedrock and just put an interface to that and hope that it's going to provide the right answers to you. It's incredibly difficult to teach ChatGPT in your own model to recommend buying a meal instead of buying an individual hamburger and a French fries. It's incredibly difficult to teach an LLM to do things like that, whereas in our space, it's not. So we call this the hybrid model. Cognigy has a very similar technology to ours. They also have been copying our website for quite some time. They are a company that is primarily in Germany, which is part of the reason why this was acquired by NiCE. They have a very strong presence in Germany, but have gone more in many, many customers and not the really large implementations, but very similar in the space. And they were a partner of NiCE. Now NiCE went ahead and acquired them for $1 billion. which is 26x sales. And that sales includes professional services, which, of course, we don't have. So it's a very interesting, both valuation of our type of technology, but also the fact that like Kane Simms, who is an influencer in the space, says that the AI arms race in CX has begun. And I think that really strengthens our position together with Amazon Connect and so AWS and together with Genesys, because they also need to now counter this and make sure that they have a great offering on voice automation. So very, very interesting development. It shows that pure LLM together with an interface is not going to work, because then NiCE would not have paid this type of money for the company. There's plenty of those where you take an LLM and just slap an interface on top of it. I call that putting lipstick on a pig. But instead, it requires a real platform, and that's why NiCE plugged down $1 billion. What also happened during Q2 is that we got word from one of our customers about the accuracy that they're now seeing with their multimillion calls a month implementation of Teneo. What you see here is that it started out a year ago with 40% of cases automatically resolved. So people calling in and getting an experience where they talk and they solve what they called about, which could be support question, it could be a question of invoicing, et cetera, et cetera. And this is in a large magnificent 7 customer. So very large volumes and 91% resolved automatically. 9% will transfer to an agent, but then it gets transferred together with a string, which shows what the customer is calling about. So you transfer to the right person, but it's also a much faster way to meet the customer need. And of course, this provides happier customers. The cost difference between the person answering, in this case, and the automation answering is $5.60. And this is 10 million calls a month. So 9.1 million calls per month are $5.60 cheaper than working with a human. So it gets better service. You answer much quicker. Customers are happy because they get instant service, but also very, very big savings. So another update going for 40%. We had 60% in the fall, and now we're at 91% with this customer. So very interesting development. Now what's the reason for all of this? And for those of you who haven't seen these presentations before, it is because we have higher accuracy and understanding. That same customer says that we have 99% accuracy in understanding. And that's something you reach after fine-tuning the model in a few hours or -- well, we just had a case where we did it in 6 hours and reached 99%. This is done by an external company. The table you see was done by an external company, and that company is called Cyara. They are the biggest testing company for voice solutions. So again, within this niche, which is Contact Center. And what you see here is us compared to some of the other ones. And we just heard a very interesting thing from a large customer we're working in a pilot -- sorry, in the proof of concept, where Google dialogue flow that they currently have cannot discern between yes and no. So in 48% of the cases, when you say no, it actually thinks you said yes. And that's because one syllable words are very, very difficult to discern for traditional AI models, which are not hybrid like ours, the TLML model that we use. So with that market update, so in summary, big things happening, big acquisition happening showing that this is the right route to have a platform that has this hybrid type of technology. That's the NiCE acquisition. Rated #1 by the biggest -- the most trusted analyst firm in our space. And the partnership with Genesys is really moving along very, very well, as well as with AWS Connect. But our main focus right now is still Genesys with only one case going on with AWS Connect, whereas most of our pipeline is together with Genesys. So moving on to a business update, which is more numbers like. We had a 129% net revenue retention, still very proud of same-store sales or what our customers are achieving. Very, very happy with this. ARR, SEK 89 million in constant currency. The dollar impact is quite large. Also, what you see now is seasonality in our numbers, meaning that since we're at capacity at both of these customers, like I said, in Q4 and Q1, the projects we have, we're now doing 100% of the calls. That means that now we see impact of seasonality. So the way we calculate ARR is we take the last 3 months and we take that x4. The average of the last 3 months x12 -- average of the last 3 months divided by 1 month and then x12. That's how we calculate it. And then you see an effect where it actually looks a bit softish, but I believe that we're still tracking to our goal, which is, I sometimes say $20 million, sometimes SEK 200 million. We have, of course, calculated goal on large U.S. customers in dollars. And the dollar, we're not really sure what's happening with the dollar, if it's up or down. It hasn't been this low since 2021. But in constant dollars, SEK 89 million, and we believe that we're definitely on track to doubling that with the new projects coming in. So that's still our goal, and that's still what we're working for. So the growth in SaaS ARR year-over-year, 60%. In that total ARR, we did have some customers that we have removed. These are chat customers that has to do with our upgrade to the latest version of Teneo, which is coming, where basically we're going to be maintaining one code base, and we've been sort of forcing customers to lift to the code base that's now, because we can't maintain several versions backwards. That just costs us too much money for chat customers, which typically have quite low revenue as well. So a bit of movement in the ARR, on track for the goal, which is our SEK 200 million, $20 million goal, and to reach that in Q1 with the pipeline we have. 88% gross margin, very, very proud of that. That means also that our EBITDA is actually in line, although we're slightly softer on the revenue line, having to do with the dollar as well. And then revenue growth on SaaS API calls is 81% year-over-year. So still growing very, very rapidly year-over-year with some seasonality seeing from Q4 and Q1. So how are we doing the investment in new sales? You've probably also seen that our cash burn is lower, but we did invest in new sales. We're moderating the investment a bit pending getting those first customers in, which out of the pipeline. But if you look at our pipeline development, it is kind of difficult to follow if you're from the outside. But maybe it's just best to say that it's doubled almost from Q1 into June. And the reason for that is primarily that we're moving into the sales stages, the later sales stages. So it's not adding too much from Q1 since we added quite a lot in Q1 in terms of qualified leads. Now we're more in the later phases, which is where we're defining the project or we have a pilot or a POC or even in negotiations. So our pipeline is only measuring the license or the subscription. We never use the API calls in our pipeline, has to do with many things, but the most important part of that is that it's very difficult to estimate that. So that's why we have that as a target, and we don't put that in the pipeline. Several interesting developments here. CloudHesive is an AWS Connect implementation partner that we signed up with. I think that was Q1, but we've been working with them for a short while. And we have our first proof of concept -- sorry, pilot together with them, where CloudHesive is going to be building that out for a PE-owned company, where the PE owns many similar companies, and they're going to be using that solution for all of them. And interesting is AWS Connect has decided to participate in that and are very interested in this. So that's our first case also together with AWS Connect. Genesys, I already mentioned. Azure, we have in the pipeline 2 cases, where Microsoft has come to us. So we're quite happy with that, too. But again, the strongest that we see right now is Genesys and AWS. EBO is our second way to work together with the NHS -- actually third. CGI, we just renewed, together with them, our contract with the National Health Service. But EBO delivers AI solutions into the National Health Service, and we're now collaborating together with a proof of concept actually in Qatar, so not in NHS, but to show -- that's also an English-speaking hospital, to show them to be able to showcase real live usage of this solution, Teneo into the NHS as well. So EBO, very happy with that partnership, very interesting company as well. The other new one is FGS. FGS is a division within the Vodafone company. It's a tech implementer. So it's an ICE, let's call it -- it's an implementation specialist on technology that is owned by Vodafone in Turkey. And Turkey has sailed up as a very important part of our pipeline. Of course, Turkey has a large in-house -- sorry, in-country population, which means that companies have a lot of inbound phone calls and it's also quite a strong space for Genesys. So that's how it's sailed up. And FGS, established partner that is helping us in these cases as well is going to be participating in implementing them. So very happy with that development, too. In the investment in new sales, the drivers -- the big investment this year is, of course, the U.S. and the big drivers are Michael and Lee. Lee, having come from Genesys and then worked in adjacent spaces to Genesys, is our key liaison with Genesys, of course, being very well known within the Genesys community, also within the partners. And then Michael Kenney, who has been Head of Business Development for companies like Ingram, Dropbox and Symantec, is leading the charge in the U.S. So very happy with our progress there in terms of building pipeline. We're going to start seeing deals in Q4 in the U.S. And in the meantime, of course, Europe is delivering in Q3 as well. So one thing I get quite a lot of questions about, apart from "are LLMs going to eat your lunch", which, of course, NiCE answered by plugging down $1 billion on a company that uses the same type of hybrid technology as ours. The second question I get quite a lot is what's the impact on tariffs and other things happening in the U.S. And I added a point from Q1, which is the fourth one. We do see a lot of uncertainty in making decisions in Europe, primarily at this point, because that's where we're in the negotiation phase with several customers. But we're seeing that there's more hesitancy in actually committing. So what we added during the quarter is we build out pilots or POCs for the customer to show that it works very, very quickly and easy to implement. And that's, of course, because of our great solutions architect team that are able to do that as well as being solution architects and presenting the solutions. Otherwise, the dollar impact is, of course, quite large to us as you see in the constant dollar versus the other reporting. Cost savings are in focus in the U.S., that is positive for us, especially when we are in a voice customer, because that delivers a lot of cost savings. And of course, we have local U.S. delivery, so we're not really impacted by tariffs, at least at this point, and I don't see any real way of doing that either. So that's the impact from what's happening in the U.S. Operational highlights before we move into financials. So some interesting renewals that have happened, of course, like CGI and MedHelp. We also have moved BPM, which is an Italian bank, to our SaaS offering. We're very happy with that. That means that we now have a bank in the European Union that is using the Software-as-a-Service solution. That means that the Software-as-a-Service solution can be used by pretty much anybody. So we meet all the security demands with also the new ones, DORA, that have been applied to banks. That means that anybody could use our SaaS offering. It's very highly secure and the most secure. I was looking at a picture where Donald Trump was going to say, the most secure and beautiful in the world, but it is the most secure, the most certified ISO, SOC, et cetera., that we've implemented during the last few years. Obviously, the 81% year-over-year growth, very happy with the SaaS API call growth, volume growth, and improving profitability is quite important to us. Of course, that gross margin is what pushed us to cash flow profitability end of last year. And that's something that we see that with adding these new customers in the pipeline, we're going to get back to that as well. So Q3, Q4 are going to be strong with that high gross margin. So very happy with that. And with that, I'm going to move over to Fredrik to give us the financials in a bit more of a deep dive.

Thank you, Per. I think we can jump to the next slide there. You've seen this slide before, shown by Per. So I just wanted to emphasize, I mean, that we are reporting a very strong year year-over-year. We continue to see a very strong NRR. And also quite important also if we look a bit for the future also that our revenue model really scales. And I think we have also mentioned that we are working quite a bit to lower our delivery costs, et cetera, in the past quarters, and we also see impact from that. So in essence, I mean, the significant volume impact from higher API call volumes show that we actually have a very high degree of operational leverage in our revenue model, and that is also emphasized there in our strong and record gross margin of 88% in the quarter. And for us, driving the business on a daily basis, I think this is key that we can see that adding more volumes will further improve our profitability and also our gross margin. And that is what we see in the quarter, I would say. We can move to the next slide, Per, please. Again, we experienced a very strong growth rate year-over-year in all our sales numbers. And in the second quarter, the internal focus has been very much on securing renewals with our existing customers. But also, as Per mentioned, that we have been qualifying the pipeline that we have created in the first quarter 2025 and also building further for our long-term growth very much in the quarter. As has been apparent in our revenues, currency has had a significant impact on our ARR and revenues during the second quarter of 2025. We have been guiding for our currency exposure, I think, during the fourth quarter of 2024, and also the first quarter 2025. And it's apparent with close to 70% of our revenues in U.S. dollars, the appreciation of the SEK in 2025 has had a negative impact, obviously. Currency adjusted, our SaaS ARR still grew with 60% year-over-year, which is a very strong number, I would say. We also see continued growth on our SaaS API call volumes and revenues, growing 69% and 81%, respectively, year-over-year. And as I said, in the quarter, we have renewed with existing customers and also focus very much on our pipeline and also maturing the pipeline, coupled with also then continuously trying to drive price increases with our existing customers as well. Also which is important for us working in the company and have been part of the company for 4, 5 years, it's key that we also continue to increase SaaS revenues as a proportion of total revenues. And in this quarter, we had 73% of total coming from SaaS revenues. So very important there. And also, we continue to only have recurring revenues. And we think that is quite important. And also then looking at a bit on the company that was acquired that had a significant part being professional services at a much lower gross margin. Usually, we see having pure software revenues is key for long-term value creation. So that is something we will continue working with. Gross margin, as said, growing steadily and at 88% this quarter, which is a record level. We also invest in sales and marketing as communicated in Q4 and Q1, but we also keep a strong cost control, and we can also see that we have improved our adjusted EBITDA versus previous year amounting to minus SEK 3.9 million in the quarter. And we also see a strengthening or improvement in our cash flow generation as well versus prior periods, which is also very positive, I would say. Also, we talked about the impact on our revenues from especially U.S. dollars, but also euro. We can also conclude that we have a lot of staff outside Sweden as well and also other costs denominated in USD and euro. So we also get a kind of a natural hedge here also from having costs as well, not just revenues in those currencies. So I think that's important to stress as well. We can continue to the next slide, Per, please. Our NRR basically measures how well we managed to grow our existing accounts and a number exceeding 100% means we are growing in this aspect. And in the quarter, we had an NRR of 129%, which I think in the B2B enterprise software space is a very, very strong number. And yes, we are very pleased with continuing to show that kind of high level on our NRR numbers. Next slide, Per. For those of you that have been with us on these calls for a period of time, you're well aware of this, but I'll reiterate still, because I think it's an important thing to consider. So API call volumes on SaaS, I mean, that's a key indicator of how our business grows. So this is a key KPI, it's an indicator of how our customers' application and usage of them are growing. And the more applications, solutions, covered regions, the higher API call volumes. And we grew the volumes versus Q2 2024 with 69%, but we also experienced a slight decrease versus Q1 2025. And the decline in SaaS API call volumes during the second quarter is related to seasonality of built-out solutions mentioned by Per already. And we see higher volumes also in the beginning of the third quarter. So we can already now see that when we look at the July numbers, they are higher than the numbers we have reported in the second quarter. Also important to stress, new volumes are underway, as we can see from our pipeline development and volumes, I mean, coming as we close new customers, obviously, but also new projects with existing customers. So I think very hopeful for the future. And we also expect existing accounts to continue to build out, as I said, and also that we will be able to really deliver on our pipeline shortly. So we see a lot of potential for the future basically. Next slide, Per, please. ARR. As said, currency had a negative impact on our ARR in the second quarter. Therefore, it is important to show the currency-adjusted growth rates. And the SaaS ARR in constant currency versus Q2 2024 grew with 60% year-over-year. And the total ARR grew with 21% year-over-year Q2 '24 versus Q2 '25. So overall, very solid numbers, I would say. We can move to the next slide, Per. Basically the same slide as the previous slide, but with unadjusted currency. And obviously, the growth rate in actual exchange rate amounted to 49% year-over-year for SaaS ARR and 13% for our total ARR. So a bit softer numbers when looking at actual reported numbers versus currency adjusted numbers. Next slide, Per, please. Very pleasing again with our gross margin. We continue to improve our gross margins in Q2 2025. 88% is a record gross margin for us and show that basically that we can scale with higher API call volumes. We also show this including and excluding commission costs since the commission costs can have a significant impact on us and the gross margin in a short period perspective. But in this quarter, we did not acquire any new customers, and therefore, the gross margins are the same. But as you can see, at a higher level than before. So a very solid gross margin in the quarter, I would say. Next slide, Per, please. OpEx. In Q1 2025, we guided for increased costs as we continue to invest in sales and marketing activities. That is still the case. But despite our guidance there, we have flattish OpEx run rate Q2 2025 versus Q1 '25. So in essence, we still keep a lot of cost control, as Per already also mentioned earlier here during the call. And we will continue to invest in sales and marketing, but we will carefully steer investments a bit based also on our new customer wins. So cautious approach on investments, but investing in the right things. That will be key going forward in H2 2025. Next slide, Per, please. Cash position looking strong as we started Q3. Cash including collected receivables end of quarter amounted to SEK 49.4 million. So in essence, we start the quarter with a very strong cash position for capturing the opportunities here in Q3, Q4, and it's going to be very interesting to see the execution of our pipeline here in the next quarters. Next slide, and over to you, Per.

Well, thank you very much, Fredrik. I'm just going to reiterate a bit and add one more thing. So we have very strong growth year-over-year, as we said. Very interesting to see what's happening with our Teneo 8, which we're launching actually in 6 or 7 weeks, but we're already using this in some customers. And of course, that's one of the reasons why Banco BPM can move to Software as a Service. So we hope that, that's a trend that we can push more customers over to Software as a Service, especially those that are willing to use voice, because that's really where the future is. But the last point here is something that I added in this operational highlights. So we have three opportunities right now in pilot, POC, and these are large opportunities and one in negotiation. What does that mean? Well, if it's in negotiation, they've already made the decision to buy. It's just a question of getting the contracts together. So this one should be announced very shortly. And if it's in pilot and POC, there's an evaluation period, but also all of those 3 are within this quarter. So very strong pipeline. And the reason that the pipeline is double is primarily because we're moving those opportunities forward towards the closing. To get to that SEK 200 million, $20 million target, what we've said is we need essentially 3 of the size of our largest customers or 5 of our midsized customers to reach that. And that's definitely what we have in the pipeline. So very happy with our development of our pipeline, very happy, of course, with the results and the fact that our technology has achieved great results with Donna in DMG Consulting.

So with that, I'm going to leave it over to Q&A. And as always, you have to raise your hand, I unmute you, and then you're going to unmute as well. And the reason I hesitate is because I don't see that on my screen, but let's see what happens. Let's see, Forbes, if I can unmute you. I can. There we go. And now you can unmute yourself, Forbes.

Yes, just one question to start here on the outlook. You mentioned seeing higher volumes so far in July and Q3. Could you give a little more color on what you're seeing? Is it a broad-based recovery? Or is it a small amount of customers that are pursuing projects and perhaps regionally? Some more color would be nice.

I think what Fredrik was referring to, that's seasonality. So that's the same customers as in Q2. It's just that from a seasonality perspective. And we've asked the customers because you could think why would it be seasonality in calling to customer care, why would that be lower volumes in May and June. But it is, and that's what the customers are telling us. So in July, that picks up again. I don't know how that works, if it's vacations or not, but we're not sure about the mechanisms. But then the other thing is adding new volume and new projects. And that's, of course, the big focus that we've had this year. We know that we're not going to grow with existing projects, because we have capacity on those. Now we need to add new ones. And that's where the real development is happening in Q3. In terms of guidance, how we're getting to that $20 million or SEK 200 million, not really sure if we can provide that because that's very dependent on many factors, but that is definitely our goal to be there in end of Q1. So yes, I'm not sure, Fredrik, if you can give any more color to that.

No. And I think the question was perhaps more related to the July volumes. I mean, it's very much what Per said. What we can experience also number-wise is that there is a higher number in July, and we thought it was very good also since we had this decline in Q2 to also emphasize that we see a pickup in the rates, but we don't really want to be explicit in how much more higher, but it's higher, definitely.

So that makes life difficult if you want to forecast our revenues, but it's difficult for us too. So...