Yes Bank Limited (YESBANK) Earnings Call Transcript

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Yes Bank's Q3 FY '26 Earnings Conference Call. On the management panel, we have with us today Mr. Prashant Kumar, Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer; Dr. Rajan Pental, Executive Director; Mr. Manish Jain, Executive Director; Mr. Niranjan Banodkar, Chief Financial Officer; and Mr. Sunil Parnami, Head of Investor Relations and Sustainability. Mr. Prashant Kumar will now give you an overview of the results, which will be followed by a question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. Before we further proceed with this call, please note, while all efforts will be made that no unpublished price-sensitive information would get shared, in case of an inadvertent disclosure, the same would, in any case, form part of the recording of the call. Further, some of the statements made on today's call could be forward-looking in nature. A note to this effect is provided in the Q3 FY '26 results presentation itself, shared on the bank's website. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Prashant Kumar. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you, and a very good afternoon to all of you. Welcome to our quarter 3 earnings call. On this call, I am joined by the senior leadership team of the bank. Before we dive into the details, we trust that the new year has begun on a very positive and prosperous note for all of you and your families. Now coming to results for quarter 3. As we have been articulating over the past several quarters, Yes Bank strategy is firmly anchored around profitable growth. And in that context, quarter 3 was a breakout quarter within all around strong core operating performance across profitability, asset quality and granularity while maintaining a sharp focus on operational efficiency. Let me first start with the profitability. Despite the heightened competitive intensity and multiple rate cuts, causing pressure on the margins, the bank has continued to strengthen its earning profiles. For quarter 3, the bank reported net profit of INR 952 crores, registering a strong growth of 55% Y-o-Y and 45% on a quarter-on-quarter basis. The reported annualized ROA for the quarter further improved to 0.9% against 0.6% in the previous quarter as well as the corresponding quarter last year. Moreover, the annualized reported ROA for 9 months has now improved to 0.8% against 0.5% for 9 months of the last financial year. It is important to call out that our reported net profit for quarter 3 had an impact of INR 155 crores due to incremental gratuity provision on account of change in the wage definition under the new labor codes as separately called out on Page 6 of the investor presentation. Adjusting for this impact, the net profit after tax is actually INR 1,068 crores, translating to an annualized ROA of 1%, a guidance of achieving closer to 1% ROA in the exit quarter of FY '26 and for the full year of FY '27. Similarly, the bank also reported a sustained improvement in its pre-provisioning operating profit adjusted from gratuity impact, which improved by 28.7% Y-o-Y, and 7.1% on a sequential basis and actually is INR 1,389 crores. This core operating profit has been driven primarily by expansion in our operating jobs with 9.7% Y-o-Y growth in total income, against 2% Y-o-Y growth in OpEx adjusted for gratuity impact over the same period. As a result, the cost-to-income ratio for the bank adjusted for gratuity was 66% against 67.1% in quarter 2 and 71.1% in quarter 3 last year. Over the last few quarters, as we shifted the franchise towards higher profitability, the bank also kept cost well under control, resulting in one of the lowest operating expense growth rates amongst peers, which is also a key driver of our continued improvement in our cost-to-income ratio. The operating profit to asset ratio now stands at 1.2% for quarter 3. At the same time, it is important to call out that bank's 4 critical profitability levers continue to perform well. We are talking about the structural rundown of legacy RIDF balances, number one; the granular and profitability-centric deposit and asset engine, number 2; the strict focus on cost optimization with productivity enhancement, number three; and lastly, the significant improvement in our asset quality. As we have been highlighting in the past, a critical component of our profitability improvement is the resolution of the legacy priority sector lending shortfall. Since FY '24, the bank has maintained 100% compliance across all PSL subcategories, ensuring that no incremental burden is added to our RIDF stock. As a result, our RIDF balances have continued their steady decline from a peak of 11% in FY '24, to 6.9% in quarter 3, and bank remains well on track to further reduce it to below 5% of total assets by FY '27 in line with our guidance. As these low-yielding RIDF assets mature, we are systematically also retiring our higher cost borrowings as well as redeploying them into higher yielding advances. Within advances, we continue to see sustained strong traction in our main segments of SME and mid-corporate. However, within Retail and Corporate & Institutional Banking segment, we continue to remain selective and are strategically expanding our portfolio in those subsegments that deliver the most attractive risk-adjusted return. At the end of quarter 3, total advances at INR 2.57 lakh crores with a healthy sequential growth of 2.9% quarter-on-quarter. However, on a Y-o-Y basis, the growth came in at 5.2%. The advances mix Retail segment around 47%, commercial and CIB segment each around 26% to 27%. Though our headline credit growth currently lacks the system growth, we would like to highlight the following. The bank's Commercial Banking segment growth continues to be robust and amongst the best in the industry. In the Corporate and Institutional Banking segment, despite disadvantage of the cost of funds, vis-a-vis the government banks as well as bigger private banking peers, we are picking up decent traction, especially aided by our comprehensive product suite, which includes differentiated product offering of API and transaction banking, financial markets and other advisory services. In the Retail segment, it is important to note that the bank has strategically chosen not to pursue aggressive growth in 2 major product categories, that is the home loan and new car loan, as these product subsegments currently do not generate attractive risk-adjusted returns, given our cost of fund position and the elevated competitive intensity in the market. Similarly, although gold loans have been one of the fastest-growing segments in the recent quarters, the bank has deliberately deprioritized this product for the time being. Excluding these 3 segments, retail growth momentum has been strengthening over the past 2 quarters, and this improving trajectory is expected to translate into higher book growth over the coming quarters. Within the retail banking advances, the credit card outstanding has grown by 21% Y-o-Y, driven by a 26% increase in the spend. Rural banking portfolio has also grown by around 17% during quarter 3. There is a sustained momentum in our retail asset disbursement, which increased 15% Y-o-Y, supported by improved risk metrics and better vintage performance in both secured and unsecured products. The products which witnessed a Y-o-Y disbursement growth in excess of 20% included personal loan and both secured and unsecured business loans. Like I said earlier, our focus remains on profitable growth, being selective in low-yield segment and prioritizing products with superior risk-adjusted returns. Importantly, asset quality has seen a marked improvement due to robust underwriting, collection and monitoring frameworks. As we have been consistently articulating over the past several quarters, our branches serve as the core fulcrum of our business, acting as the primary hub or good granular customer acquisition and holistic relationship management. Our strategy is designed to leverage this physical network, not just for gathering liabilities, but as multiproduct engine, capable of generating assets, fee income and high velocity transaction flows. During the year, we have expanded our branch network to 1,328 branches by adding 33 new branches in quarter 3, and overall, 76 branches in the 9 months of current financial year against a full year target of 80 branches. This focus on branch network expansion is already yielding significant structural results with internal sourcing from our branches, now accounting for approximately 52% of our retail asset disbursement, a substantial increase from just 37% around 2 years ago. Our deposit franchise continues to demonstrate healthy momentum. Total end-of-period deposits stand at INR 2.93 lakh crores, registering 5.5% growth. On quarterly average balance basis, bank's total deposits have grown by 5.7%. This growth needs to be considered from 2 perspectives. First, bank have taken sharp rate actions in the deposit space. In fact, one of the highest amongst the peers. Despite this, the bank has been able to maintain this growth level and actually outperform the industry on the CASA front. Secondly, like in advances, in deposit also, the bank is prioritizing profitability and granularity. Bank's incremental deposit mobilization is increasingly retail-led and CASA accretive. On average quarterly balance basis, retail deposits have grown 12% Y-o-Y with robust momentum in retail CASA. And within that retail, current account balances have grown 19.4% Y-o-Y and retail saving balances have grown by 16.3% Y-o-Y, reflecting deeper engagement and growing customer trust while also achieving a lower cost of funds. On an EOP basis, retail balances have grown by 9.1% Y-o-Y. This outpaced total deposit, evidencing a continued shift towards granular retail funding. And retail and branch-led deposits now contribute approximately 60% of total deposits, growing at rates faster than that of bank's total deposits, underscoring the strength of our branch network. Within saving accounts, growth up to INR 1 crore and individual cohort underscores franchise depth even as wholesale deposit remains subdued, highlighting the resilience and quality of our retail deposit engine. The bank CASA and retail TD which reflects granularity in our deposit, stand at 66.2% of total deposits against 62.6% in quarter 3 of last financial year. This outperformance in deposits in a tight liquidity environment is a testament to our branch-led deposit engine and our shift to a service-led fulfillment model. Along with this, the bank has also maintained a strong focus on sustained reduction in its cost of deposit which has reduced to 5.6% from 6.1% last year, driven by higher deposit rate cuts relative to the rate cuts undertaken by RBI and competitors. This is a reflection of bank's strong franchise and focus on accretion of better quality customers with higher NAVs. Similarly, cost of funds have seen a reduction of 60 basis points to 5.9% from 6.5% last year, driven by reduction in high-cost borrowings, which were reduced to fund the bank's legacy PSL-related deposits. All of these aforesaid initiatives in PSL, asset mix and liabilities have also resulted in gradual improvement in our NIM, which will be the biggest driver of our ROA expansion journey from here on. The NIM for quarter 3 have come in at 2.6%, which is a 12 basis point expansion on quarter-on-quarter basis and 24 basis points on Y-o-Y basis. Both on quarter-on-quarter and Y-o-Y basis, the balance sheet mix improvement has more than offset the impact of interest rate cuts. On the asset side, a marked reduction in RIDF balances from over 11% to under 7% has reduced the negative drag, while the corresponding improvement in advances mix is further contributing to gradually -- gradual NIM accretion. Similarly on the liability side, a favorable funding mix shift with shrinking share of high-cost borrowings coupled with a sustained rise in CASA has led to relatively superior improvement in our cost of funds in the recent quarter and even amidst challenging industry backdrop. Moreover, the profitability traction of last few quarters has led to a gradually increasing contribution of capital in the funding mix. On the rate front, it is critical to appreciate that the bank has significantly contained the impact of interest rate cuts on the loan spread, through proactive action on the deposit rates. Here again, the deposit rate reduction achieved by the bank has been one of the highest among peers. Now moving on to the next critical aspect, that is asset quality. Our growth calibration and proactive risk management efforts of last 4 to 6 quarters, which included tightening of sourcing, underwriting, scorecards and improving our collections infrastructure, including early intervention have yielded a marked improvement in our asset quality outcome with headline gross NPAs improving to 1.5% from 1.6%. Similarly, net NPAs remained stable at 0.3%, while the provision coverage ratio increased to 83.3% million against 81% in quarter 2 and sharply higher compared to levels of 71.2% witnessed in quarter 3 of the last financial year. Similarly, the quarter 3 was the second consecutive quarter of improvement in overall fresh slippages, which were contained at INR 1,050 crores against INR 1,248 crores in quarter 2 and INR 1,458 crores in quarter 1. As a result, the bank level slippage ratio improved to 1.6% of the period as advances against 2% in quarter 2 and 2.4% in quarter 1. This is the lowest slippage level seen in last 8 quarters, which is primarily led by a sharp improvement in fresh slippages in the retail segment advances. Within retail, the slippage has improved across both secured and unsecured portfolios. Similarly, there is a good improvement in the early delinquency overdue bucket of 31 to 90 days across the portfolio. During the quarter, the aggregate recoveries and upgrades at INR 1,224 crores. And within this, the recoveries from the fully provided security receipt at INR 555 crores takes our cumulative recoveries from security receipt for the year to almost INR 1,113 crores and in line with our guidance of INR 1,200 crores for the financial year. It is important to highlight that on the account of P&L gains from the SR portfolio, while the net credit costs were negligible for the quarter, even normalized for this impact, if we were to look at just provision for NPAs, these stood at only 0.5% of the average asset against 0.7% for both quarter 2 as well as quarter 3 of the last financial year. As regarding the noninterest income, the core fees are up by 9.8% Y-o-Y, driven by strong traction in fee income streams, which includes the processing fee, the third-party distribution and general banking. So if I have to summarize strategically, the bank's profitability is being driven by margin expansion through RIDF rundown, CASA mix improvement and deposit price action. Going forward, we expect to see benefit from retail mix improvement on the asset side. Number two, sustained growth in fee income, leveraging digital platforms and cross-sell opportunities. Number three, our continued focus on cost optimization and productivity enhancement, which has helped us achieve improvement in cost-to-income ratio and should further drive operating leverage as income growth accelerates. And lastly, normalization of credit cost, particularly in the retail segment. Looking ahead, Yes Bank remains committed to its strategic road map of profitable growth, targeting full year 1% ROA for FY '27 and 1.5% in midterm with growth outlook, which will be in line or marginally higher than the industry. Having said that, at the same time, we will calibrate the growth depending on our profitability objectives as well as opportunities in the market. Once again, I would like to thank you so much for your continued support. And now we can take your questions.

[Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from the line of Pankaj Agrawal from Prudence Investment Advisors.

Sir, many congratulations for outstanding results. I have 2 questions. Basically, these are 2 queries. The books that had been delivered to JM Florence (sic) [ JC Flowers ] INR 48,000 crores. So how much cumulative recovery has been done from that book? And is there any legacy slippage has been left? And secondly, retail banking continued to slip. So like how many more quarters it will take so bank could be like getting profitability from retail banking, sir?

So Pankaj, first, thank you so much for continuing to remain interested in Yes Bank franchise. To your first question on the recovery from the ARC. Since we have assigned this to ARC, on a cash basis, we have recovered INR 7,500 crores for Yes Bank, okay? That is one thing. And we continue to have almost like INR 1,800 crores of outstanding security receipt which would be -- we would be getting monetization of both security receipt as well as the upside from the resolution of those assets. So still, there are a lot of juice available in that portfolio. Second, in terms of your question on the retail, I'm really happy to report that this quarter, our retail businesses have breakeven, okay? And going forward, we would going to see a significant contribution in the profitability of the bank from the retail. Because if you like -- just like I would like to bring to your notice that for the last 4, 5 years, especially after COVID, there was a time where we were continuously investing on the retail side. And when you invest, it takes time to have a returns out of that. And in between, the industry also faced a very adverse credit cycle on the retail. I think not only our investments have started yielding the right results, and with that turnaround in our asset quality cycle on the retail, where we are seeing a lower slippage, better recovery, so not only retail asset has breakeven, but would contribute, I think, significantly going forward in the profitability of the bank.

Sir, if I can just clarify, I think what Prashant is saying. So when you look at our segmental results, you will find that the retail will still have a negative number, but that is also because we've taken a onetime charge for the gratuity. So if you adjust for that, and there are certain -- internally, we reported as part of retail, but for the segmental disclosure, we are classifying them as outside retail, if we build that back into the retail business, we have broken even. I think that's the important point we wanted to make.

And best wishes, we hope that Yes Bank will reclaim its earlier position very soon.

Our next question is from the line of Jayant Kharote from Axis Capital.

The first question is on the retail disbursals. So I see it's slightly down Q-o-Q by around INR 300-odd crores. I was under the impression that given the asset quality trajectory, this should be moving up. So why this sort of -- I know it's not a sharp decline, but why this calibration over here? And how should we think about the next 2, 3 quarters in the retail disbursals? That's the first question, I'll come back with the second one.

Or you can, I think, complete your question, then we can respond.

Okay. So second one is on CASA. Absolute number seems to be not going up meaningfully for the past couple of quarters. So if you could also shed light over there, I know we've taken a lot of pricing actions. So again, when do we see that growth or uptick being meaningful on the absolute CASA balance?

So I think there are 2 things. Like first, in terms of retail disbursement if you see with the -- the confidence in terms of the underwriting and the collections, I think we have started seeing the disbursement, which is 15% higher on a Y-o-Y basis. We have also seen like since we are not there in the prime home loan and the new car loan and the gold loan. But we are seeing like every month the disbursement happening at a higher level. So I think the current quarter should be much better than what we have seen in the past. But I think this is a continuous path where the trend is absolutely improved -- continuous improvement. So we'll see, I think, much better on this. On your CASA, I think, I would just like to make 1 point. Today, if you see our overall deposit growth and the deposit growth of the CASA, it's doing much better than what the industry is doing, especially when I talk about the retail. I think So I think if we -- if you need to grow on the overall liability side, at a rate, okay, which would be higher than the industry, then it means for improving the CASA ratio further, you need to grow on CASA much higher than the overall deposit growth, which in the current times, if we see the trend across the industry, we feel like it's a tough time. But I think the important part is that we have taken actions in terms of reducing our rate of interest on saving bank, where the cost of saving bank has come down by almost 150 basis points. And despite this, we are improving. So I think it would be like a balanced approach where we would continue to have the rate action and have the growth also.

If I may squeeze in -- sorry, go ahead, sir. Apologies.

No, no, Jayant, please go ahead. Please go ahead with the question.

If I may squeeze in 1 more question. If the third quarter disbursements do improve the way you are hinting at, should we now think of next year growth closer to the mid-teen number? Or how should we think about next year's growth?

So absolutely, Jayant, like if we see in terms of the growth for the current quarter, sequential growth, which is 2.9%, okay? We are very confident that we would be -- sequentially, we would be able to grow more than 3% in the current quarter, which will take our credit growth to around 8% okay. But definitely, next year, after I think able to solve the issues in terms of better underwriting and better risk policies control on the retail and also in terms of like all the, I would be saying the high-risk corporate loans have already been repaid, I think we would be definitely targeting a loan growth, which would be more or less in line with the market, barring, I think if we need to exclude the growth, especially on the products like prime home loan and the car loan.

Very, very helpful.

Niranjan here. I just wanted to maybe add to what Prashant said on the CASA. So I just wanted to say that, look, one, we did call out that in September, sometimes there are certain transient flows that kind of go in on the deposit side, especially on the current account side. And therefore, if I just bring your attention to the average performances here, both on current account and savings account at the full bank level, we have seen almost like an 8% increase in current account Y-o-Y and about 17% in savings account Y-o-Y. If I bring that attention more to sequential numbers, both CA and SA has grown by 5% each. So yes, sometimes we do see some noise that kind of comes through the reported numbers. But the fact that current account actually has sequentially grown 5% has also been 1 of the contributors from a net interest margin standpoint as well. So I just thought I'll clarify on that.

This is very helpful given that average CASA growth of 5% is -- I think I missed that coming through, so this is very helpful. I think this puts my concerns to rest.

Our next question comes from the line of Sucrit D. Patil from Eyesight Fintrade Private Limited.

I have 2 questions. My first question is as the bank moved beyond stabilization, how do you see Yes Bank positioning itself for growth in the retail and SME lending, while also -- while also expanding digital banking. Could you share your vision on how the bank will differentiate itself in the next few years against larger private sector peers? That's my first question. I'll ask my second question after this.

Why don't you complete your questions, we'll respond to both.

Okay, yes. My second question is regards to profitability and margins. Again, with profitability improving, how are you thinking about balancing cost discipline with the investment needs for tech and branch expansion over the next few years? And what steps are you taking to ensure the margins remain stable while the banks scale itself and the SME business?

So I think first responding to your second question, in terms of investment for future and also at the same time, maintaining a balance between the profitability. So I think if you see last 4, 5 years, we have heavily invested in both technology and our retail network expansion. And despite this, we have been able to control our cost to asset. If you see our cost to asset, despite these kind of investment has not gone up. Actually, we have been able to control within 2.5% to 2.6%. Okay. And if you see even the current growth on the OpEx is one of the lowest in the industry. And despite continuing to invest in terms of opening new branches, better digital capabilities, so I think we have been able to reach that inflection point where we -- whatever we have invested in the future, it has started giving the results to us. So it's a cycle where we will continue to invest for the future, and we'll also get the reward for our investment of the past. So I think we're quite confident that we would be able to invest also and we would be able to have a balance between the cost as well as on the profitability side, okay? Coming to your first question in terms of how we need to differentiate in terms of our SME and the digital side, I think if you see on the SME, we are showing one of the best loan growth. And even if you see our total advances, 29.3% of our advances are actually the SME advances, which is again one of the highest in the industry. So I think this is one area on the SME, which offers a huge opportunity in our country, and we have a very good understanding and the distribution network in terms of acquiring new customers having a good turnaround time and meet their requirement, not only from the loan purpose, but also in terms of solutions coming from the digital and the tech side. So I think this is one area where we would like to continue to outpace the industry. On the retail side, I think currently, our strategy is definitely in terms of chasing a profitable growth. And we would not like to grow in those asset classes where the returns are not as per the risk. But definitely, we are looking for some products on the retail where we are currently not there in terms of building our capabilities and start growing on this. I can name just 2 things. Maybe one, I'm not saying on the low side, but definitely on the wealth side, is one area where we would like to explore and build our strength in this side. Plus, we may also look in terms of -- if the products like gold loan offer a good opportunity, how we can start building our capabilities for that product also.

I think the last part of the guidance was very important. And I wish the entire team best of luck for the next quarter.

The next question is from the line of Jai Mundhra from ICICI Securities.

Congratulations on a steady quarter, sir. I have 2 questions. One is, you've specified the impact of gratuity under the new labor code, but the number seems a very -- relatively very high if you compare other banks, those who have given the preliminary assessment. Any reason, sir? I mean, other banks are saying only very -- maybe 1/4, 1/6 number of what you have reported. Any -- I mean, any more details that you could share there? Hello?

Ladies and gentlemen, the line for the management seems to have disconnected. Please stay with us while we reconnect with the management. Ladies and gentlemen, we thank you for your patience. We have now reconnected with the management.

Jai, you are able to hear me?

Sir, hello, yes, I can hear you now, sir.

Okay. Okay. I think we were disconnected in between. So Jai, in terms of the -- our understanding of the wage bill is talking about that you need to calculate gratuity, assuming that your wages have to be at least 50% of your fixed pay. As per -- at least as per our wages construction, currently, the basic pay is around 30% of the total fixed pay. So if we have to define as per the new wage bill, then the gratuity has to be worked on the basis of if the basic becomes almost 50% of that. Now if we take it from 30% to 50%, and this is how we have worked our liability. And we have been very, very, say I would be saying careful in terms of why don't you make provisions instead of the coming quarters, we continue to have a negative effect. So basically, the strategy was more in terms of workout as per our understanding, make a onetime provision so that the future earnings are not being impacted from any possible interpretation of the wage bill.

Right. Sure. And the second question, sir, on SMBC. I mean, right now, they are majority -- they are one of the largest -- they are the largest shareholder, but not a promoter. And they also have share through their 4 Indian branch, right? So do you see a possibility wherein 4 Indian branch of SMBC is amalgamated or convert into wholly owned subsidiary? Or how does it work? I mean can they run parallelly? Or do you think there is going to be an impending change there? Or how should one look at that?

Jai, my understanding is almost similar to what understanding you would be having on this. Nothing different, okay? They are currently like 24.99%. We have also seen a new write-down that got approval for a wholly owned subsidiary. How things will shape up in the future, I think all of us together we will see that.

No, no, sir. I'm not asking you to sort of give me any future thing. I wanted to check they can -- I mean, those 4 branches will -- can they run separately or they have to be sort of mixed with Yes Bank current operation as of now, I mean nothing into future. They can run separately or they have to be...

No, I think -- because this is the first time this is happening in the Indian banking space. Very, very difficult to give a definite answer in terms of having a complete understanding how the regulator would think about this. So I think at this point of time, let's see how that whole thing would take shape in the future.

Sure, sure. And last -- and sir, on asset quality, right? So this quarter, you've done exceedingly well, the SR redemption continues and the specific provisions are negligible, right? But sir, if I look at last quarter, right? So I mean somehow it is creating a bit more volatility in the specific provision. If you look at last quarter, there was a bump up. And this quarter, there has been significant decline. So I mean, fair to say that if you continue to receive, let's say, INR 500 crores kind of a SR redemption you can sustain the current negligible kind of a credit cost or that can again have a volatility in this line item?

So Jai, if you look at our -- I think the right metric to look, Jai, is really the NPA provisioning because, as you rightly said, SR provisioning can at times be unpredictable. It is not a function of what we are doing. It's a reflection of what the asset reconstruction company is doing, although we keep getting cash flows from them. So I think just on the NPA provisioning, the credit cost in March, we did see provisions of about INR 900 crores. They kind of came for the next 2 quarters at about INR 680-odd crores, which has now come down to about INR 533 crores, right? And it's also clearly coinciding with the way our core asset quality performance has improved. So slippages have also come down. Now on the security receipts, look, we did see a dip last quarter, we did see some increase now. I think that's the way some of these things will play out. But on the whole, we've always said that we had guided last year that our net credit cost, nontax provisions to assets should be below 50 basis points for the full year. I think we're happy to state that I think that's something we should be able to continue regardless of the volatility that will happen during different quarters.

Right. Sure. And if you have any rough cut range of this redemption over the next, let's say, 2 to 4 quarters from this SR portfolio?