Fortum Oyj (FORTUM) Earnings Call Transcript
October 28, 2026
Earnings Call Speaker Segments
Good morning, everyone, and warm welcome to Fortum's joint webcast and news conference for the investor community and media on our third quarter 2026 interim report. My name is Ingela Ulfves and I'm heading Investor Relations at Fortum. As always, there will be a replay on this webcast later today on our website. With me here in the studio are our CEO, Markus Rauramo; and our CFO, Tiina Tuomela. Markus and Tiina will together present the group's financial and operational performance. Now let's go to our presentation, after which we will take your questions in the Q&A session. So with this, I hand over to Markus to start.
Thank you very much, Ingela. A warm welcome to this call also from my side. I will start by going through the highlights of our third quarter and our financial performance and then talk about market development. After that, Tiina will provide more details on the financials and how the operational performance turned into our results. Let me now start with the highlights. Our results in the third quarter improved compared to last year. At the same time, it is good to note that the third quarter typically is the smallest quarter result-wise and we generate most of the results during the first and fourth quarters. Before we dive deeper into the results, let's look at the highlights of the third quarter. Our power price in the third quarter amounted to EUR 45.5 per megawatt hour compared to EUR 46.1 per megawatt hour last year. The realized market price, i.e., the blended price in Fortum's generation areas was EUR 46 per megawatt hour, i.e., approximately EUR 10 up compared to EUR 36.7 per megawatt hour 1 year ago. The main reasons for the slightly lower achieved power price where lower physical value creation and a high hedge ratio. This year, nuclear generation was higher as there were fewer nuclear outage days compared to the third quarter last year. Weaker hydro conditions and allocation of hydro volumes to future periods resulted in somewhat lower hydro output. Our Hydro generation volume was 9.8 terawatt hours which is 0.7 terawatt hours more than in the third quarter last year. We maintain our full year guidance for the optimization premium intact. It is expected to be between EUR 8 to EUR 10 per megawatt hour. We continue to have a strong balance sheet and good liquidity. So our overall financial position continues to be very robust. Despite uncertainty, in the operating environment, we continue to see robust underlying customer demand from various industrial sectors, which we believe reflects the long-term power demand growth. One proof point of this strong customer demand is the 22-year nuclear lifetime extension PPA with Google that we signed in September. At the end of the June, Fortum also took a significant strategic step for growth in our Consumer Solutions business, as we announced the [indiscernible] shares in the Norwegian company, Elmera Group ASA. I will come back to more details on both of these next. In September, we signed the largest sales agreement in Fortum's history. It is also the first large-scale lifetime extension, nuclear PPA in Europe. The agreement provides economic certainty for the lifetime extension and power upgrades of the Loviisa nuclear power plant through 2050 and demonstrates the important role of nuclear power in meeting growing customer demand for reliable, low-carbon electricity. Alongside the agreement, we also signed a memorandum of understanding, covering potential future cooperation in renewables, flexibility solutions, nuclear new build and overall energy portfolio management services for Google. Then a couple of words about the Elmera PTO and process. We are very excited about this transaction. as the combination of Elmera and our Consumer Solutions business, will create a stronger Nordic business with greater capabilities to serve customers and create long-term value. We are very pleased that Elmera's Board of Directors and the whole management supported the deal and recommended the transaction to all shareholders. As we received the approval from the competition authorities in Norway already in September and achieved the 90% threshold at the beginning of October, the PTO process has been rather fast and is now being finalized in the coming weeks. On 23rd of October, we settled the voluntary cash tender offer for all issued and outstanding shares in Elmera, excluding Elmera's treasury shares. The total consideration was approximately EUR 463 million and represents almost 92% of all Elmera's issued and outstanding share capital. Elmera is now expected to be consolidated into Fortum Group and included in the Consumer Solutions segment from 31st October onwards. Next, we intend to carry out a compulsory acquisition of the remaining shares of the squeeze-out process. After that, Elmera will be delisted from Euronext Oslo Bors. In the previous results call, I went through the strategic rationale for the offer and how it supports our strategy and long-term value creation for our stakeholders. In short, the rationale is built around 4 key elements. Number one, there is an ongoing structural change in the electricity market, serving Nordic customers and small- and medium-sized enterprise customers. Number two -- three, this transaction creates value for our shareholders and other stakeholders. And number four, it makes us fit for the future. Together, we and Elmera will create a stronger Nordic platform with the scale, capabilities and financial strength required to remain competitive. The combination of the 2 brings together complementary businesses with a shared focus to deliver value to customers. By combining customer volumes, operational infrastructure, and expertise across the value chain. The combined business is expected to achieve meaningful cost efficiencies and operational synergies to the benefit of Nordic consumers. The combination also benefits employees by creating a larger and more resilient organization with greater resources, broader capabilities and increased opportunities for long-term development. Then I will move over to our main figures and financial performance. Let's look at our comparable headline KPIs for the group's third quarter and first 9 months of 2026. In the third quarter, comparable operating profit increased, while EPS remained flat. Our comparable operating profit totaled EUR 102 million, an increase of EUR 5 million. Comparable earnings per share amounted to EUR 0.08 per share. Operating cash flow increased slightly to EUR 134 million. Also for the first 9 months, all KPIs developed positively. Our leverage, measured by the net debt to comparable EBITDA ratio was 1.4x. Next, a few words about the market environment. Let's first look at the spot price and hydro reservoir situation for the Nordic market. It's good to note that this is not Fortum's reservoirs, but the whole Nordic market. At the beginning of the third quarter, the reservoir balance had a deficit of around 5 terawatt hours which then declined rapidly in July to reach a significant deficit of 13 terawatt hours by the end of the quarter. Nordic Day had prices in the quarter increased year-on-year. Prices in some areas even doubled, driven by the lower reservoir levels and stronger continental price signals. Finnish spot prices were a notable outlier as they slightly declined year-on-year. During August and September, there were low wind periods, when the entire Nordic market benefited from strong continental spot prices which were driven by surging gas prices. Nordic power demand in the third quarter increased by 1 terawatt hour year-on-year, as power consumption totaled 85 terawatt hours. For the last 12 months, power demand in the Nordics was somewhat above 400 terawatt hours. In September, Fingrid updated their demand forecast for the Finnish market. They anticipate slight growth for the coming years, mainly driven by increasing demand in the data center sector. In general, Finland is seen as 1 of the fastest-growing areas of Europe, measured by power demand growth. This concludes my part, and I would now like to hand over to Tiina to talk more about business performance.
Thank you, Markus. Good morning, everyone, also on my behalf. I will now go through our financials in more detail. Let's start with the key figures. I will start with some of the comparable KPIs. Comparable operating profit for the third quarter increased from the previous year and amounted to EUR 102 million. In the quarter, comparable net profit decreased slightly to EUR 65 million. Consequently, our comparable EPS for the third quarter remained stable at EUR 0.08. Our cash flow during the quarter was EUR 3 million higher than in comparable quarter and totaled EUR 134 million. Then over to the segment result for comparable operating profit. Let's have a look at the third quarter waterfall Water segments. The main reason for the improvement in the group's comparable operating profit was higher nuclear generation. This was partially offset by lower physical value creation. The result in both Consumer Solutions and the other operations segment declined. In the Generation segment, comparable operating profit increased by EUR 29 million impacted mainly by the higher nuclear volume, partly offset by lower physical value creation. The result of this district heating business decreased somewhat, impacted mainly by reduced availability related to ongoing decarbonization project and lower power prices in Poland. This was partially offset by higher heat volumes in the Nordic. Comparable operating profit for Consumer Solutions decreased by EUR 9 million, mostly due to the lower sales margin compared to the extraordinary strong margin last year. In the other operations segment, comparable operating profit decreased by EUR 15 million, mainly due to the higher fixed costs, including certain one-off items. The result of the Circular Solutions businesses was slightly lower compared to the comparison period. When looking at the year-to-date performance, we see the same result pattern across segments. The group's comparable operating profit increased by EUR 55 million to EUR 729 million. The Generation segment's result increased while the result in the Consumer Solutions and Other Operations segment decreased. In the Generation segment, comparable operating profit increased by EUR 86 million, positively impacted mainly by higher spot prices and higher nuclear and hydro volumes partly offset by a high hedge ratio. The result of the district heating business increased mainly due to the higher volumes, higher sales price of power and new electricity-based production assets. This was partly offset by higher fuel costs and impacts from reduced availability in Poland. Comparable operating profit of the Consumer Solutions segment decreased by EUR 16 million to EUR 80 million, mainly due to the lower sales price sales margin compared to and higher fixed costs. In the other operations segment, comparable operating profit -- operating loss increased to EUR 86 million. The result of the Circular Solutions businesses improved slightly compared to the comparison period. Then over to the loan maturities, leverage and liquidity. Our financial position continues to be strong, primarily supporting our objective to maintain a credit rating of at least BBB. It naturally also provides a good financial foundation in this very turbulent market environment, but it also cuts the growth and shareholder returns. In these uncertain times with various geopolitical conflicts, this is a very good position to be in. At the beginning of the third quarter, our net debt was EUR 1,761 million. In the third quarter, operating cash flow was EUR 134 million and [indiscernible]. The change in interest-bearing receivables and margin amounted to EUR 43 million, while FX and other effects were EUR 29 million. The change in collateral debt was EUR 24 million. Consequently, at the end of the quarter, our net debt was EUR 1,811 million and the leverage ratio for the net debt to comparable EBITDA was at 1.4x. This does not take into the account the Elmera transaction of EUR 463 million which was paid last week on 23rd October. Looking at our debt portfolio and the loan maturity profile, I want to highlight a few things. At the end of the quarter, our gross debt excluding leases totaled EUR 4 billion. Our maturity profile is very balanced, and there are no large maturities in any single year. In 2028, a EUR 500 million bond will mature. Bonds are and continue to be our primary source of funding. We continue to have ample liquidity reserve of EUR 6.7 billion. At the end of September, these were split in EUR 2.3 billion of liquid funds and EUR 4.4 billion of undrawn committed credit facilities. The cost for our EUR 4 billion year loan portfolio is 3.4%, while interest income that we get for our EUR 2.3 billion year of liquid funds is 2.5%. The overall objective is to have sufficient liquidity while optimizing the balance between the debt and cash to minimize funding cost. Then over to the final section, the outlook. The outlook section includes guidance regarding our outright portfolio, capital expenditure and taxation. Let's start with the hedges. For the remainder of this year, the hedge price is EUR 43, and the hedge ratio is 80%. The hedge price for 2027 increased by EUR 1 to EUR 42, while the hedge ratio increased by 5 percentage points to 70%. The hedges for 2028 are now disclosed for the first time. The hedge price for 2028 is EUR 42 while the hedge ratio is 45%. We are including financial contracts and PPAs in these figures. And it is good to note that 2028 hedges include the share of the Google PPA for the first year of the contract. For the year 2026, we maintained the guidance for optimization premium estimated to be between EUR 8 to EUR 10 per megawatt hour. Predictability becomes more uncertain for the further out in time you go. Consequently, our longer-term guidance for the year 2027 and onwards is between EUR 6 to EUR 8 per megawatt hour. Taking into account all announced outages, nuclear output for 2026 is estimated to be below the normal level of 26 terawatt hours. Based on the current market information, we estimate that our nuclear volume will be approximately 23 terawatt hours in 2026. Previously, our estimate was between 23 to 23.5 terawatt hours. Our capital expenditure guidance remains unchanged. We have EUR 550 million committed for the year 2026. This includes maintenance, but excludes potential acquisitions such as the Elmera transaction. For the period from 2026 to 2030, the committed CapEx is EUR 2 billion, of which EUR 750 million is growth. Annual maintenance is expected to be EUR 250 million. The guidance for our corporate tax rate also remains unchanged for 2026. We expect the comparable effective income tax rate to be in the range of 18% to 20%. This was all for my presentation. And now we are happy to answer your questions. So with this Ingela, over to you.
Thank you so much, Tiina, and thank you, Markus. This was a rather straightforward quarter. Moderator, please go ahead.
[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from Harry Wyburd from BNP Paribas Exane.
So firstly, can we talk a little bit about the newly disclosed 2028 hedging. It's a little bit lower than I might have expected. And I just wanted to dig into it a bit. So -- if you look at the region premium inclusive prices over the last 6 months or so, they've been more like 45 and I guess you're going to have some, as you mentioned, some Google PPA in there. It help us understand roughly how many terawatt-hours of 28 do you expect from the Google PPA, which should help us weight things? And -- why is it 42? Is it because you laid most of the hedge late last year or very early this year. So any color you can give us on the makeup of 42. And then secondly, flipping things looking further forward, obviously, Nordic power prices is incredibly strong for 2027, 2028, et cetera. More so than would be purely explained by just the moves in gas prices and carbon prices. So I wonder, could you give us a little bit of a thought and diagnostic of what is driving forward prices up more to 3 years out. Is this a demand response? Or is this sort of lower hydro volumes echoing down the forward curve? Is it interconnects prices because we -- a neighboring region are going higher, just some color on why you think we're seeing such incredible strength in longer forwards? .
Okay. Thank you very much for the good questions. And I can start with 2028 -- behind Nordic pricing. But starting with hedging. So we do the hedging several years ahead, as you know, historically. So the hedge price is that you see today for 2028. These are a result of already some years of building up the hedging portfolio. So in looking at how have we come to the EUR 42 level. It's a result of going back a couple of years and looking at where the prices were then. Then on top of that, there's a piece of the Google transaction. And when we communicated the transaction, we didn't disclose the price, we gave the RONA impact and said that the deal starts in 2028 and then it goes into full effect in 2030. So it's now still a part of the volume for '28, '29 and then full effect for 2030. So these are the components that get us to the hedge price that we see now for 2028. And then, Tiina, about the Nordic dynamics.
Very good. So as we know, the Nordic system is very hydro driven. So I would say that the hydro situation is currently 1 of the main reasons. So -- at the moment, the Nordic reservoir levels are around 13 terawatt hours below the normal level. So I think this is the first indicator. Then of course, the Continental Europe's power price and also the gas price situation. So price is nearly double at least when it comes to the power in some market areas that has an impact also indirectly to the Nordics. And then the third one, of course, is what is the outlook for overall demand-supply situation and we see many data center projects coming on the lines, which obviously, they come step-by-step, not immediately. But probably, this is the assumption that how the overall kind of demand supply situation will impact. So I would allow these 3 reasons.
The next question comes from Rob Pulleyn from Morgan Stanley.
A couple of questions from me. So firstly, if we can take the data center angle on a different angle. So we saw that the finished supervisory agency instructed Google to cease work at the [indiscernible] and [ Kajani, ] if I'm pronouncing that correctly, sites. And I wondered whether this would have any impact upon your current contract, future contracts. -- or, in general, just data center development in Finland, given this -- there seems to have been all over the media, shall we say. Second question on a different angle. And is that you have a financial stake in Oskarshamn 3 which is obviously run by Uniper. And we were wondering, given obviously the life expiry of this particular plant as it stands, if there was any scope for extension there like you've done [indiscernible] which, of course, would create more volumes and more volume visibility over the coming years.
Okay. And same thing I can take the data center angle. And if you want to talk about the lifetime extensions in general, -- but starting -- so indeed, we have seen the environmental authorities and the supervisory authorities activities. I regard this as quite normal. So -- no impact on our contract, no impact on our future MOU either. So this is in the normal cost of business. Companies have to file and follow the supervisory authorities requests. Overall, I would say in that context that there's a very large portfolio of customer demand on our side coming from steel, aluminum, data centers and other sectors, prospects of hydrogen also going forward. And that's why we continue to talk about the robust demand in our customer portfolio. And we are responding to that also with our supply portfolio when customers need additional supply. So the Finnish fundaments continue to be very, very robust. And then over to Tiina, on [ OKGL ] lifetime extensions.
So lifetime extension is clearly in our focus being the 1 of the major value value driver. If we look at our current asset portfolio. So at Loviisa we have already approval to extend the lifetime. And now with the Google deal also this commercial support. In Oskarshamn well, like in Forsmark, so they are investigating the lifetime extension. The system is a bit differently. So there is a regular kind of regulatory check of the condition of the plant. So not similar process, but similar intention. Similar intentions to look how the lifetime could be extended. So that is on the planning.
Okay. That sounds reassuring on both sides. If I may, a quick follow-up. -- this might open the door on it. But if we could give an update on your position vis-a-vis Uniper's Nordic assets because obviously, we're getting close to the end of the year. When I think that this option you have sort of expires and sort of where the latest thinking is or anything you can add?
Yes. Thanks for the question. So we continue to with our position that if there is hydro or nuclear available in the Nordics, we are interested, and we would look at it for what we know now is that the German government has ticked for indications of interest publicly for the up to 75% of all Uniper shares. And this is something where we have said that this is not interesting for us. If nuclear and hydro are available, then we continue to be interested. But now the German government is assessing as far as we understand, the IPO track and the bilateral sale up to 75%, and we are not a part in that.
The next question comes from James Brand from Deutsche Bank. .
I was hoping I could sneak in 3. Firstly, you obviously completed the offer for Elmera now. I was wondering whether you could say, obviously, you haven't kind of announced a synergy target, but is there anything you can say about potential synergies or any kind of market some that they could be quite substantial. That's the first question. And the second 1 is on data centers. In Finland, as I understand that there's about 2 gigawatts that's under construction and at least another 1 gigawatt that looks very advanced and very likely to come through in the next kind of 2, 3 years. So around 3 gigawatts maybe 4. And I was just wondering whether you kind of said earlier there was robust customer demand for PPAs, but maybe you could just give a bit of an update in terms of your in discussions around PPAs with all of this capacity, these counterparties like contracting at this point? Or are they holding off? Is it interesting to kind of know what's going on there? And then thirdly, I was wondering whether you could give an update on the Finnish data center law. You gave a bit of an update on your last results call, but is that still kind of moving forward? Do you have any fresh expectations or whether that's likely to be coming through .
Okay. So 3 questions. I'll start with the Elmera. Tiina, if you want to take reflections on the DC law and grid prioritization and so on. And I can talk about the -- also the contracting pipeline. So starting with Elmera. So Elmera is almost 1 million customers. We have 2.3 million. So that is the expectation that there will be very meaningful synergies as we have had from previous transactions all the way to [indiscernible] Orange Energia. We will then disclose what our synergy targets are and what would be the expected time lines of those once we have then closed the transactions and on the delisting and go into into execution. We are targeting to benefit our stakeholders, our customers and the whole market with this. So this should give good results for everybody, better services, better quality, better results for us, good products for our customers. Regarding data centers, indeed, 1 way to track the progress is now to look at the construction companies order books and what is happening on that front, and we see indeed progress as you described in the sector. We are discussing with data center sector with hyperscalers, co-locators, Neoclouds here and globally about their interest, but also with the other sectors. Metals and Mining, steel, aluminum battery factories. And then on top of that, the as well as electric mobility increasing. So active discussion with all of the sectors and we will then update on the material transactions as they happen, like the Google transaction or otherwise, then quarterly in connection with the quarterly results, the hedge ratios and hedge prices but activity across the board, which does indeed feel very robust. And then, Tiina, if you want to talk about reflections on the DC and grid.
So indeed, a lot of interest on the data centers in -- overall in the Nordics. So -- and particularly, I think Finland has been the main focus in many of the companies. So I think 1 number or reflection on the overall Nordic is that there are projects around overall 10 gigawatts. And in Finland, Finland also those numbers, what you indicated. So many of the project going on. Of course, the other thing is that how many they will be completed in what timetable. This has, of course, then raised the concern that what is the availability and how to make all these projects to fit to the system,; provided also that other industrial projects are prior to advertise and make sure that they are getting to the access to the market. And therefore, there is discrete connection prioritization framework on the preparation, which is now planned to be online early next year. And many companies, including us, are giving the comments to the prioritization in a way, work. but we are a bit concerned that there is a kind of quite long time line when there would be an answer who gets or who don't get to the permit or access to the grid and it would be very important to, in a way, support now the growth, what is now seeing in many fronts, while, of course, taking care of that grid is stable and we get get the main projects in line. But at the moment, I think good progress overall. .
I'll add 1 thing to that. So we observed the concerns in Europe, in the Nordics, globally of grid availability and power availability. The way we work around that ourselves is that when we see the customer demand, we are developing sites, powered sites. So we work around the concern of the availability and find availability together with TSOs and DSOs. So we are not going to places that are already find sites where there is space in the grid that even supports the grid use close to production, close to new production and then look at what can we do, for example, to take -- get more capacity out of the grid. I'll give a very practical example. In [indiscernible] boiler, heat-only boiler. We have agreed a flexible grid agreement. So if the DSO says that they have to limit our access -- of course, this doesn't fit all users, but this is a way to find innovative solutions to answer the different concerns. So bottom line is we create a lot of optionality it, we create a big funnel so that we can serve our customer needs within the frameworks that are at any given time available.
The next question comes from Artem Beletski from SEB.
First 1 is maybe a bit broader question relating to your hedging strategy and thinking about year 2028 and beyond. So given extensive Google PPA and a lot of term PPA agreements, how do you think about your hedging rates looking midterm. So should we anticipate higher hedging rates? Or are you planning to reduce this type of shorter-term agreements, the magnitude of [indiscernible] been done with your customers? And the second question is relating to nuclear volumes and you have taken further down the outlook for this year, talking about 23 terawatt hours and the normal is 26. If you look at maintenance activity for next year, should we expect a more normal year in terms of output on this front? .
Okay. Tiina, if you take the maintenance activity part, and I'll take the first part. So we continue with our normal short-term hedging strategy, where the target is to create visibility for the short-term cash flows. When we think about longer-term PPAs, then of course, we take into account our view of what is the price development going forward, what is the market demand supply and if the price level for PPAs is not to our satisfaction, then we can as well keep the power and hedge in the short term. Even when we do the short-term hedging, we need to think about when could the potential long-term PPA start. And we know that the Google deal starts in 2028. So when we have been negotiating that deal, we take it into account in our hedging. And as you can see, 45% hedging ratio is quite fine. So we could still do more deals that would start in 2028. So we have no problem with that. So we're continuously matching the midterm, long-term potential customer need for PPAs versus the short-term hedging. So both are coexisting. And then for the -- what is our appetite to do more, we have appetite to do profitable, long-term large deals that would increase the 10-year rolling hedge ratio. Now we said 25% is the target level our appetite to do more then depends on the outlook and what the pricing could be there. And then over to the maintenance activity.
So as we have already earlier communicated, so this year has been kind of the year of the long outages. So many kind of planned longer outages based on the circle in a way, this 8-year, 4 year and so [indiscernible] and this year, many of those happened to occur this year, like Loviisa outages. And therefore, we have already earlier indicated that our normal nuclear output would be around 26 terawatt hours. And this year, now 23 terawatt hours. Next year, at the moment, it looks that it is more normal maintenance here, and we should be closer to our normal production numbers again.
The next question comes from Ajay Patel from Goldman Sachs.
I guess my 2 areas. One is on optimization and the guidance you gave at the moment beyond '26. I just wondered if you could give us a little bit more on why the drop on optimization and why these numbers aren't improving given the increased and better outlook that you've talked about on demand. And then the second question was more on the power land at the 5 gigawatts that you talk are developing. Is there any insight that you can give us on this pipeline in terms of what's mature, what's not, what potentially could be available in the next couple of years, what may take a bit longer as it's a sizable number, but we just at the moment, then have really difference to what's more immediate and what's not. Any sort of help on either there would be really helpful. .
Thank you. So I could start with the powered land. And Tiina, if you want to talk about the optimization volatility versus flexible assets. So regarding the power land, yes, we have -- we call it 5 gigawatts of power land. It is in different stages. And we will develop it to whatever is then the readiness that customer needs or we agree with plus to land owners, grid companies and so on. So any site will take some work to get to the point where a transaction would be done. But that then depends on our bilaterals with the customers. When we see that customer demand increases, we [indiscernible], we are continuously talking with our customers. And we know that this is a valuable resource, and we have several discussions going on not only in DC sector, but in other sectors as well. So bottom line, different stages, and they will be developed to the finish line once the customer real practical customer needs are known. And then to the volatility and flexibility.
So optimization premium, what we have indicated for this year, so EUR 8 to EUR 10 per megawatt hour. And then next year and further out, EUR 6 to EUR 8 per megawatt hour, but we have also indicated that the predictability of course, when it comes in a way, we come to the closer to the period, we will -- it's easier to keep the, in a way, more kind of accurate guidance. I think overall, if we look at where the optimization premium comes from. So the majority comes from the hydro flexibility. And this has been very strong, more renewables coming to the system, prices in a way being more volatile. So this is -- this we see still very, very strong. The other part of the optimization is the ancillary services. And this is the part which is moving a bit while the batteries are coming in. Also demand respond coming in. So there are more volatility also in that front. The third element in the optimization premium is environmental values. And then actually, we have seen a positive tick what comes to the guarantee of origin of the hydro. So the price is slightly increasing. So -- it is the combination of all these 3 items. And if we look at the overall volatility, so it is there an anticipated to continue. But what is the exact value. So we will update more information and more kind of visibility we get to those numbers.
The next question comes from Louis Boujard from ODDO BHF.
Maybe just to start with a very quick follow-up on the -- just wondering if you could provide us with an updated figures after 9 months where you stand at the moment compared to your EUR 8 to EUR 10 per megawatt target? And my understanding in your previous said that you might have maybe room to be a little bit more part of until for the next few quarters considering notably the Hydro Flex and most likely the increasing value of the renewable aspects but I'm not sure to understand what is about the ancillary services is going in the right direction or in the opposite direction at this point in time. This 1 is just a follow-up. So if you allow me, I would have to ask another 2 questions. Beyond the initial PPE, what concrete opportunities are covered by the memoranda understanding with [indiscernible], particularly in renewable flexibility and into nuclear. And what could become material within the next few years, by the end of the decade according to you based on this MoU. And maybe regarding the 864-megawatt storage project, [indiscernible], excuse me, for the [indiscernible]. Could you clarify the key condition required to reach a finance and investment decision here? What level of visibility would you need on power price and services revenue and regulatory framework in order to go to the FID.
Okay. So I could take the Google question and the pumped hydro and Tiina, if you then continue on the -- on the PPA. So maybe on the optimization premium, so if you take that first.
All right. As you know, we give the guidance only for the full year. So we don't comment any kind of the quarterly numbers. But I think it's fair to say that the optimization premium varies between the quarters. But I think the overall guidance is the full year. Now in third quarter, we also commented that hydro value creation was a bit lower, which, of course, indicates that when there is a less water, so -- or inflow, so that gives a bit bit less opportunities to do that perfectly. Also, the other moment what we say that, of course, we look at how do we allocate the hydro between different quarters. So what is the total optimization. So therefore, I think the quarterly number is not that important. It is important, what is the full year. And as we indicated that if we look at the volatility numbers, -- so they are still showing the same development being a higher level than a couple of years ago. .
Okay. Thank you. And -- then for the Google MOU, new renewables, flexibility, new nuclear and energy management services. So Google's philosophy, as they said in connection with announcing this transaction is that they will bring new power to the market as their consumption grows. So it is then Google's time line that defines how much new capacity and new production would come -- but in this MOU, we are in a position to work with them to make this happen. New renewables for new wind it takes about 2.5 years to bring it online new solar 1.5 years, give or take. Batteries are fast to build. Then for new nuclear, having a customer who wants to develop nuclear and has a view that there could be a price level that they can commit to and where technology can -- technology can meet that, that is essential for new nuclear to happen. So we need -- we need technology time lines, cost of technology. We need customers with the demand that is critically important for us and then financing for that. And then potentially, states can make it easier for new nuclear to happen because the construction times how long, so loans guarantees, CFDs potentially derisk these kind of projects. So all of this, we are working on with Google in their own development time line with their -- with the projects that they have in [indiscernible] and [ Hamina. ] For pumped hydro, we have 4 projects, 3 in Finland, 1 in Finland and 3 in Sweden. And what is critical for pumped hydro is that we have the technology there. It's rather conventional with hydro turbines and the hydro equipment then big civil works. So that is an area that needs very thorough investigation and of course, environmental permitting and deep local consultation. Then the projects depend on the financial conditions and the markets. So the pumped hydro operates based on the market volatility and when can you pump up water to reservoirs when the price is low and then put it back to the market when the prices are higher. And there can be customer demand or direct market demand for this product we can build profiled services or take use of the volatility in the market. Clearly, a structural need for this kind of long duration storage exists even today. And if the renewable production increases, there will continue to be demand for that going forward. But these are some of the main conditions for pumped hydro to happen. So many big building blocks need to be in place before such projects would start.
The next question comes from Piotr Dzieciolowski from Citi.
I have 2 questions, please. So the first 1 is, I wanted to ask you about the response of [indiscernible] industry, but from the steel and industrial clients and other types. So to what extent this -- which is majority of the consumption, they are willing to accept a much higher PPA prices than what you see on the forward cap and what they used to pay in the past, like -- and then what's your approach to this negotiation? Do you tell them how we can sell volumes at these high prices, you have to match it? And how do you see this thing playing out? That's the question number one. And the second question I have about if you have any specific view of how quickly the northern Swedish prices can convert to the southern level. So -- is this going to -- there could be a somewhat quicker process of catching up at these prices? .
Okay. So I can take both of these questions. So -- regarding the clients in the different segments, the appetite and structural appetite for PPA is different. So starting -- if I start with the data center segment, we can see that there is appetite for many customers for securing power and the price for a very long term. Google transaction is a good example of that. There are additionality needs, and that is what has stimulated a big part of the Nordic renewables in the last years, the data sector segment. Then if we look at the traditional heavy industries, and look at their own order books. So pulp and paper, chemicals, metals, oftentimes, the price resets quite frequently. So in effect, these businesses are locking a spread and when they only know their own demand and prices half a year or a year ahead, that is typically the hedging horizon. So not very long. So their business leaves both [ legs leave ] in time. And we, of course, for that segment, we find solutions as well, both for the short-term forecast ability and if there's appetite to do midterm hedging for that as well. Then there are the new entrants where the business model for new steel or new aluminum can be that the projects need visibility, both on the income side and the cost side. So then there is indeed appetite to do longer both for their own customer offtakes and then matching that with input costs. And again, it comes to -- ultimately to the spread that they need to secure. And then both the demand and supply the amount of energy and supply of energy are impacting what is then the ultimate price that such a company can offer to their own customers. So this is to say that we look to serve all customer needs with products that suit them and that give us the required return on our new investments. And of course, what do we regard as the correct price to commit our existing assets. So good solutions for all customer segments. Then for the Northern Swedish convergence. So indeed, in Norway, Sweden, also other areas where you have several price areas then the prices are determined by the demand and supply in those areas, the nature of the production as well as the interconnection. So the ability to transport energy from 1 area to the other. And as we know, in Sweden and Norway, the power cannot flow so that you would have all the time the same spot prices or the forward prices. So what can happen in Sweden is that more interconnections would be built, prices would converge or then more demand goes to the places where prices are structurally lower. And that is something we see happening as well that North Sweden is an attractive place to place new projects and there are big electrification projects in Northern Sweden also in the pipeline. And this is part of the customer portfolio that we are also talking with continuously.
Thank you. Before we end the Q&A session, I still want to come back to Harry's first question on this '28 hedge that we published today. This because there has been a lot of questions this morning already around the '28 hedges. And as Markus already also said about the hedge ratio that when you compare to the '27 hedge that we announced last year in Q3, then the hedge ratio was the same 45% -- it's also good to note that the price at the time was EUR 39. So these are obviously not fully comparable but it is just for you when you do your backtracking and your calculations of how the hedges are built up, it's good to keep that also in mind. But with this, I thank you all for your participation here today. Really good questions, and we all wish you a very nice rest of the day.
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