Home / Transcripts / Keppel REIT (K71U.SI) · July 30, 2024

Keppel REIT (K71U.SI) Earnings Call Transcript

July 30, 2024

Singapore Exchange SG Real Estate Office REITs earnings 51 min

Earnings Call Speaker Segments

LENG Tong Yan executive
#1

Hi. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for taking the time to join us this morning for Keppel REIT's First Half 2024 Results Briefing. I'm Tong Yan from the IR team. So before we begin, I'd like to introduce the management team on the session. We have Mr. Koh Wee Lih, Chief Executive Officer; Mr. Sebastian Song, Chief Financial Officer; Ms. Teo Xuan Lin, Head of Investment; and Mr. Rodney Yeo, Head of Asset Management. So we will start the briefing with the presentation by the management team followed by a Q&A session. Please be reminded to only unmute your mic during the Q&A. I will now hand over the time to the CEO, Wee Lih, please.

Wee Lih Koh executive
#2

Thank you, Tong Yan, and a very good morning to everyone. Thank you for joining us today for the Keppel REIT's first half 2024 results briefing. Starting with the key highlights on Slide 3. Property income grew 9% year-on-year to $125 million, and net profit income grew 7.7% year-on-year to $96.8 million. It is driven by higher rental contributions, as well as our new acquisition. However, DPU decreased to [ $0.028 ] due mainly to higher borrowing costs. Our financial position remained healthy. Aggregate leverage was 41.3%, and with all-in interest rate at 3.31% per annum for the first half of 2024. Borrowings on fixed rate was 65%, as at 30th June 2024. Moving on to the Slide #4. Keppel REIT's portfolio continued to deliver robust performance in the first half of 2024. Rental reversion was 9.3%, with portfolio committed occupancy increased to 97% from 96.4% in the previous quarter. Portfolio weighted average lease expiry or WALE remained at 4.6%, while top 10 tenants will remain long at 8.3 years. As at 30th June, portfolio valuation was SGD 9.6 billion with Singapore remaining, as Keppel REIT's largest market at 77%. I will now hand the time to Sebastian, who will bring you through our financial results.

Sebastian Song executive
#3

Thank you, Wee Lih. Moving on to Slide 6. Property income and net property income for the first half of 2024 increased 8.9% and 7.7% year-on-year, respectively, due mainly to higher occupancy of Ocean Financial Center and KR Ginza 2, as well as contributions from 2 Blue Street and the newly acquired 255 Job Street. Share of results of associates increased 7.8% year-on-year. The increase is due mainly to higher rentals and occupancy, offset partially by higher borrowing costs and property expenses. The decrease in share of results of joint ventures is due mainly to a weaker Australian dollar against the Singapore dollar. Borrowing costs increased 29.8% year-on-year, largely in tandem with the high interest rate environment, coupled with the cessation of capitalization of borrowing costs for 2 Blue Street following expected completion in April 2023. Distributable income and DPU for the first half of 2024 decreased 1.9% and 3.4% year-on-year to $106.9 million and $0.028, respectively. Slide 7 provides a record date for the distribution, which will be on the 7th of August with a payment date on 13th of September. On Slide 8, the increase in deposited property and borrowings is mainly due to the acquisition of 255 George Street. Adjusted net asset value per unit, as at 30th of June 2024 is [ $1.27 ]. Slide 9 provides the key capital management metrics and debt maturity profile. Aggregate leverage was 41.3%, as at 30th June 2024, and all-in interest rate increased to 3.31% per annum for the first half of 2024. Borrowings on fixed rates and sustainability-focused funding form 65% and 82% of our total borrowings, respectively. We have refinanced most of the loans that are expiring in 2024 and do not have any major refinancing requirements until the first half of 2025. Slide 11 shows the portfolio breakdown, as at 30th of June 2024 by geographical locations. Singapore remains the largest market at 77%, while Australia, South Korea and Japan are at 19%, 3.1% and 0.9%, respectively. After securing a new tenant from the technology, media and telecommunications sector, occupancy of 2 Blue Street increased from 66.4% to 77.7%. T Tower also achieved full occupancy after securing new tenants from the banking, insurance and financial services, as well as government agency sectors. Slide 12 shows the breakdown of our performance by geography. Net property income figures comprised those of directly held properties, as well as our attributable share of net property income of associates and joint ventures. The Singapore portfolio recorded an increase in net property income due to higher rentals and occupancy. Net property income for the Australian portfolio also increased due to contributions from 2 Blue Street and 255 George Street, partially offset by a stronger Singapore dollar. North Asia portfolio, which consists of T Tower and KR Ginza 2, recorded an increase in net property income and is mainly due to the increased occupancy of KR Ginza 2. I'll now hand the time to Rodney and Xuan Lin, who will talk through our portfolio and market updates.

Kuang Hsing Yeo executive
#4

Thank you, Sebastian. Moving on to Slide 13. Please note that we are disclosing the information based on gross rent instead of net lettable area. You can find the information based on net lettable area in the additional information section. In the first half of 2024, we committed more than 546,000 square feet of space and achieved portfolio rental reversion of 9.3%. Tenant retention rate was 64%. New leasing demand and expansions were mainly from the banking, insurance and financial services, technology, media and telecoms and legal sectors. As at 30th June 2024, Keppel REIT's portfolio maintained a high committed occupancy of 97% and a long WALE of 4.6 years and 8.3 years, respectively, for the portfolio and the top 10 tenants. Slide 14, we continue to maintain a well-staggered lease expiry profile. The weighted average signing rent achieved for our Singapore CBD office leases was $12.63 per square foot per month in the first half of 2024. The average rent for the leases expiring at our Singapore properties was $10.77 per square foot per month, which is below both our signing rent and CBRE's average core CBD Grade A office rent of $11.95 per square foot per month. Remaining expiries for 2024 is 7.2% by attributable gross rent and 6.2% by attributable NLA. Slide 15 shows our established and diversified tenant base, comprising established blue-chip corporations and government tenants that provide long-term stability for the portfolio. The next 3 slides provide a summary of our midyear property valuations. On Slide 16, valuation for our Singapore portfolio increased 0.6%, as compared to the December [ 2023 ] valuation. This is mainly contributed by the increase in valuations for MBFC Tower 3 and Keppel Bay Tower due to higher passing rents and rental growth expectations. Slide 17 shows our Australia portfolio valuations, including our newly acquired 255 George Street, the valuation of our Australia portfolio, as at 30th of June 2024, increased 16.6%, as compared to the valuation, as at 31st December 2023. Excluding 255 George Street, the valuation would have been [ AUD 1.6555 billion ], a decrease of AUD 76.2 million or 4.4%. This decrease in valuation is due to softer cap rates. Moving on to Slide 18. Valuation for T Tower in Seoul remained stable, while valuation for KR Ginza 2 increased by 0.7% in local currency terms. Overall, in Singapore dollar terms, our portfolio valuation increased by 3.3% and excluding 255 George Street, valuation would have been slightly lower by 0.2%. I now hand the time to Xuan Lin.

Xuan Teo executive
#5

Thank you, Rodney. Moving on to Slide 19. Building on our sustainability efforts, various activities were organized in the second quarter of 2024. 8 Exhibition Street organized an activity aimed to create awareness and encourage behavioural change on waste management for our tenants. 8 Exhibition Street also held a meet and greet session for the Melbourne City Mission, the fundraiser for the Sleep at the G to provide tenants an opportunity to find out more about ending youth homelessness. Over at Marina Bay Link Mall to 5,500 kilograms of used clothes were collected from January to June 2024 for an upcycling initiative. The next few slides summarize key trends in office markets, which Keppel REIT has presence in. On Slide 21, the average rent of core CBD Grade A office in Singapore remained at $11.95 per square foot per month with an average occupancy in the core CBD at 94.4%. Moving on to Slide 22, prime grade occupancies in North Sydney and Macquarie Park increased, while occupancies in Sydney City, Melbourne City and Perth City was slightly lower, as at 30th of June 2024. The next Slide 23 shows the office space market trend in Seoul. Seoul continuous to exhibit resilience with high occupancy of 98.4%, while net effective rents increased 1.2%. Moving on to the last slide on the Tokyo office market. Both office occupancies and rents for Grade A and B offices improved during the quarter. Occupancies of Grade A and B office within the Central 5 wards of Tokyo increased to 96.4% and 97%, respectively. Net effective rents for Grade A and B offices also increased 1.8% and 3.4% quarter-on-quarter, respectively. That concludes our presentation.

LENG Tong Yan executive
#6

Okay. We will now open the floor for Q&A. [Operator Instructions] So we have the first question from Brandon. Brandon, yes, go ahead.

Brandon Lee analyst
#7

Yes. I think I saw Terence hand up [indiscernible]. Do you want to -- can you ask the [Technical Difficulty].

LENG Tong Yan executive
#8

We'll go by alphabetical order.

Brandon Lee analyst
#9

Can I just get a sense of the cap rate that you revalued Australia this half year? Is it sufficient, as we go into second half, given that you bought 255 there 6.5%, but your cost doesn't seem to be nearing that kind of level yet?

Kuang Hsing Yeo executive
#10

Yes. I think good question, Brandon. I think the valuers think that it's sufficient for now. The Austria -- but the Australian market, obviously, is, as with a number of markets around the world is probably in a state of a bit of a flux. So as far as we know, this is sufficient for the -- the valuers think this is sufficient for now.

Wee Lih Koh executive
#11

Yes. And just to add, following our transactions, there are some other transactions that came out to the market as well, like 5 Martin Place probably you transacted at around [ 6 -- 6.1 ] cap rate. So like while Rodney says it is a bit of a flux, and it seems like cap rate has tightened since our purchase itself. So we'll continue to see the thing -- again, I think we engage third-party valuers to do the valuation of this round. So this is -- so definitely there is [indiscernible].

Brandon Lee analyst
#12

Are you able to share the rental growth assumptions that the valuers have priced in?

Kuang Hsing Yeo executive
#13

For which market and -- I mean, we typically don't share that because then it gets into -- because it gets into a suite-by-suite kind of conversation, and that's a lot of detail. So we typically don't share that.

Wee Lih Koh executive
#14

But maybe to give you a bit more color for Australia, again, I think headline rent continue to trend up, and it's expected that incentives would tighten from the current mid-30s kind of range itself. So things are definitely optimistic.

Brandon Lee analyst
#15

Got it. Got it. Okay. And going back to the funding source, right? I mean, looking at your gearing, this quarter is up above 40%. And obviously, I think it seems that we have seen the per market opening up again. So just on the acquisitions front, are you looking to use that source again or even [ pad out ] some of that using that avenue.

Wee Lih Koh executive
#16

Again, I think we are definitely mindful of our leverage, and we'll continue to look at ways to how to pair it down. And again, there are a few matters and wouldn't rule out asset recycling as one of those matters as well.

Brandon Lee analyst
#17

So -- so basically [ cuts are ] offered.

Wee Lih Koh executive
#18

No, I don't think we want to commit to anything right now, but no plans for us at this point in time. What I think we communicated previously, we'll look at ways to pay down the leverage and asset recycling would be one of those methods that we will do.

LENG Tong Yan executive
#19

Thanks, Brandon. Terence, do you want to go ahead.

M. Khi analyst
#20

Yes. I just wanted to ask on NPI. On a Q-on-Q basis, NPI, if you strip out the addition from 255 George Street, actually looks like it has declined. Could you give us a sense of what drove the decline in NPI? And then on the second question, there is media reports, which suggest that you are stepping away from the divestment of T Tower. So could you give us maybe an update on how you're seeing asset recycling plans? And what's the time line to bring gearing down below that 40%?

Kuang Hsing Yeo executive
#21

Yes. Maybe I'll start with the second question first, then my team will answer the first one. Again, we typically don't comment on market rumors or unconfirmed kind of press journalists reporting itself. What we can say is we're still committed to bring down the gearing. And -- but again, I want to stress that we are not a distressed seller. We wanted to make sure that we want to negotiate the best deal for unitholders in this kind of time. So again, I say the overall trend is, hopefully, interest rate come down soon. But we will definitely long term wise, we want to keep our gearing at a lower level than where we are. Move back to the first question.

Sebastian Song executive
#22

Yes. And Terence, just to clarify, you are comparing first quarter and second quarter of this year.

M. Khi analyst
#23

Yes. Just first quarter and second quarter, excluding, let's say, 255 George.

Sebastian Song executive
#24

Okay. Sure. I think -- okay. So in the first quarter, we received also some of one-off income from one of our assets in Australia. So that might have caused 1Q to be higher. But all in all, I think the asset performance in terms of NPI for all assets are generally quite stable. We've seen some property tax increases in Australia. But that said, I think in terms of [ PI ], it's still pretty stable if you strip out the 255 George Street.

M. Khi analyst
#25

Could you give us a sense of the one-off in the first quarter?

Sebastian Song executive
#26

Yes. That came from the Pinnacle Office Park in Australia. So that was about $1 million.

LENG Tong Yan executive
#27

Thanks, Terence. [ Del, do you want to go ahead ].

Unknown Analyst analyst
#28

Just 2 quick questions from me. I think firstly, can you remind us on the funding of this 255 George Street. What was the mix of SGD and the AUD you use for the acquisition?

Wee Lih Koh executive
#29

Yeah. [ Hi, Del ]. So it's -- at the onset, I think we said we try to balance the economics and the currency exposure. So that was at about [ 30, 30-ish Aussie dollar funding ]. After that, we issued a Aussie dollar green loan if you pick that up. So now the mix is close to [ half-half ]. It's about high [ 40s ] for Aussie dollar debt funding.

Unknown Analyst analyst
#30

Okay. Okay. Got it. Okay. And still on the financing cost, right, the 3.31% that is the year-to-date figure. Could you give us an idea of what second Q number looks like?

Wee Lih Koh executive
#31

Yes. I think previously, we guided, we are looking at a mid-5% for the full year. Sorry, sorry [ mid-3% ].

Sebastian Song executive
#32

I almost had a heart attack on that.

Wee Lih Koh executive
#33

Sorry, I got that. That's around, so -- yes, [ mid-3s ]. So I think we are still sticking to that. Of course, in the past 2 to 3 weeks, we've received some encouraging news and also some encouraging movements in the interest rates. But I think we would still hold to commit [ 3 ] guidance. And then if anything happens in September if -- and also depending how SORA and the Aussie interest rates react to that we've still [ mid -3s ] for now.

Unknown Analyst analyst
#34

Just a quick follow-up on that, right? SORA at the [ mid-3 levels ], [ mid-3.5% ] levels, just wondering with your current hedging of 65%, is that a comfortable level? Or are you looking to increase or lower it?

Wee Lih Koh executive
#35

Yes. It has reduced 65% because due to some refinancing exercise this quarter. So there were a number of fixed rate loans that were refinanced and they -- we have not hedged all of them. So I think it's fallen to 65%. Ideally, we would like to maintain a higher fixed rate ratio, maybe in the range of 70% to 75%. I think that provides a lot more certainty. But I think -- yes, so given what the environment is right now with the favorable sentiment setting in, we are just monitoring what happens over the next 8 weeks to see if there's an opportunity for us to increase that ratio.

LENG Tong Yan executive
#36

Thank you, [ Del ]. Joy, do you want to go ahead.

Qianqiao Wang analyst
#37

Sure. Just 2 questions from me. First on Singapore leasing. Could you share the rental reversion number for the quarter itself and also guidance for the second half? Probably where are you seeing most demand coming from? And the second question is, you did have quite a bit of a jump in temporary adjustments in your DPU. Can I understand, is there in relation to specific leases? Or this is -- as you sign out more leases, these are tenancy incentives?

Kuang Hsing Yeo executive
#38

I'll take the leasing questions. So Singapore leasing rental reversions was 7.2% in the second quarter of 2024. Leasing demand -- view on second half of the year, I think second half of the year, sort of the way we look at things is probably flat to slightly up in terms of rental rates in what we signed at. But that said, we actually don't really have very much new leasing to do because there was just a few more renewals for the rest of the year, and our portfolio in Singapore is pretty well occupied. So not much new leasing to do at the moment. So...

Wee Lih Koh executive
#39

Yes. And to add to that, I think for renewals in the second half, we expect to continue to see strong rental reversion [ at front ].

Sebastian Song executive
#40

Yes. And Joy, on your question on the net tax adjustment is the temporary difference that I just witnessed this half year, slightly higher due to reversal of our deferred tax. So we typically provide capital gains tax for our foreign assets. So because of the decrease in valuation of our Aussie assets, we made some reversals, so that was reflected in that line.

Qianqiao Wang analyst
#41

And this is largely all adjustments made for Aussie assets, right?

Sebastian Song executive
#42

That's right.

LENG Tong Yan executive
#43

Joy, do you have any more questions?

Qianqiao Wang analyst
#44

I'm good.

LENG Tong Yan executive
#45

Thanks. Vijay, you want to go ahead with your question.

Vijay Natarajan analyst
#46

A couple of quick questions for me. Firstly, in terms of overall occupancy, I think you have done a good job in terms of keeping the occupancy high. But looking at second half, any color -- I mean, I understand that IOI is still about 45% to 65% kind of occupancy level. Is this still considered a challenge? Can you give some color in terms of where the occupancy -- I mean, leases are expiring in the second half?

Kuang Hsing Yeo executive
#47

Yes. So we have, in the second half, a few kind of major leases that we -- kind of larger leases that we are in the midst of renewing. So I think we are quite settled there for the rest of the year in terms of retention for our Singapore portfolio. From what we understand, actually, IOI also has raised their kind of quoting rents. So it's in the sense between [ $12 to $14 ], depending on where you are in the stack. And that compares actually very favorably with what we're seeing, what we're getting in our buildings. So I think the value proposition has to be, I think, quite large for the tenant to want to move to IOI, seeing that rents probably -- there's not much savings for -- by moving is what can I say.

Vijay Natarajan analyst
#48

Okay. So can we expect occupancy to be around here moving into second half?

Kuang Hsing Yeo executive
#49

It's a bit of a forecast that we don't normally like to give out, but I think occupancy should stay stable for the rest of the year.

Vijay Natarajan analyst
#50

Okay. Okay. I think earlier you noticed, I mean, you mentioned about the gearing levels. Maybe can you give some color in terms of what is your target gearing levels moving into second half. And you mentioned divestment is the strategy, which you will be looking at. Can you just pick out some assets, which you think are potential for divestments and is the T Tower still a divestment candidate?

Wee Lih Koh executive
#51

We do want to -- like I say, I think we definitely committed to bring down the gearing and to enable us to negotiate a good position. We wanted to like if specific tenant considered, but we're definitely committed to bring down gearing and to negotiate a good deal for unitholders itself. And to be told, I think we have more than one asset in our portfolio that is ready for divestment. So we are [ currently ] exploring that. So we hope to be able to bring the gearing to 40% in the short to medium term. But again, we want to make -- and there are no pressure right now in terms of financing, and we want to make sure that we secure the best deal for our investors.

Vijay Natarajan analyst
#52

Okay. My last question, I mean, gearing at these levels, would you still consider buybacks, considering the [ steep ] discount?

Sebastian Song executive
#53

It really depends. But I think you will know that we borrow to fund the buybacks. So we might take a pause for now and depending on where unit price hits. So yes, yes, probably not for now.

LENG Tong Yan executive
#54

Thank you, Vijay. [ Xuan ] do you want to go ahead.

Xuan Tan analyst
#55

My first question is on cost of debt, right? Can you give us a sense for 2025 debt expiry, what are the expiring [ be ]? And so how should you think about cost of debt in the next year? And also, the second question is on leverage mix, right? If the leverage mix is changed to 50%, would you still be looking to divest to improve gearing? Or will you be comfortable -- more comfortable at 25%?

Kuang Hsing Yeo executive
#56

Yes, probably I'll take on the first question. So I don't think we are able to share too much color on the expiring rates of the loans that are following due next year. But I think definitely, they will be refinanced at higher rates, large proportion of this are currently hedged at pretty favorable rates. But I think it's -- is slightly premature for us to actually estimate or actually provide income guidance for 2025. I think it's important that we see what happens in the next 6 months. And I think if what is predicted right now falls through, I think we'll be optimistic that we'll be able to refinance 2025 loans at pretty decent rates.

Wee Lih Koh executive
#57

Yes. As to [ MBFC ], I think it's just a consultation paper for now. But long-term-wise, strategy is to maintain a strong balance sheet. And like what I've shared with Vijay earlier, long term, we want to be able to keep the leverage below 40% regardless of where [indiscernible].

LENG Tong Yan executive
#58

Thanks, [ Xuan ]. Brandon, you still have your hand raised. Do you have further questions?

Brandon Lee analyst
#59

Yes. Just one more, right? I think can you sort of comment right on just this NPI margin for some of your Aussie assets like 8 Exhibition, Victoria Street, as well as like Pinnacle Office Park, right? So if you look at the margins for this first half and if you compare to like second half last year and even the previous semiannual periods, they seem to be on a downward trend. So is it purely because of property tax? Or is there something else that we are missing here? And is this just one-off?

Wee Lih Koh executive
#60

Yes. So far 8 Exhibition Street and was it Victoria Police Center question.

Brandon Lee analyst
#61

Yes.

Wee Lih Koh executive
#62

Yes. I think -- okay. So these are the State of Victoria. So property taxes have been -- sorry, land tax has increased. I think this in tandem with the annual value, as assessed by the State revenue Office. This is also coupled with the increase in absentee surcharge. So I think that has contributed largely to the increase in land tax and then consequently, the NPI margin.

Brandon Lee analyst
#63

Okay. Okay. So can I take it and for this half -- first half of 61%, that's the new norm is it?

Wee Lih Koh executive
#64

It really depends. I think the land tax rates are here to stay, but also, it's largely driven by property income fluctuations as well. It should be in this range on -- or the average of this half and previous [ halves ], I guess.

Sebastian Song executive
#65

Yes. But also bear in mind that long-term leases at VPC, they have annual escalation that will help as well.

Brandon Lee analyst
#66

And how about Pinnacle Office Park? Is it purely a function of occupancy?

Wee Lih Koh executive
#67

Pinnacle Office Park, it's largely driven by higher property expenses in general.

LENG Tong Yan executive
#68

Thanks, Brandon. I think we [indiscernible] any more questions?

Mervin Song analyst
#69

Yes. It's Mervin here from J.P. Morgan. Just a question on the changes in thin cap rules in Australia. I understand from last quarter that you're trying to restructure should be the used tax [ linkage ]. Can you give us an update in terms of what you're doing in terms of the structuring as well as and you quantify impact of maybe higher taxes?

Wee Lih Koh executive
#70

That is still in works. So we're still working with our tax adviser on the optimal restructuring method. So we think we can only complete the exercise maybe in the next few months. So I think -- but the conclusion is there will definitely be an increase in withholding tax that we have to pay, but we are unable to quantify that right now until we have arrived at a conclusion what the optimal restructuring mix will be.

Mervin Song analyst
#71

What's the current effective tax for Australia then? Can you share that [ figure]?

Sebastian Song executive
#72

The current effective tax rate, it's, I don't know, [ 12%, 13% ]. It's a blend between [ 10% and 15% ].

Mervin Song analyst
#73

Yes. So I guess, worst case, [ 1%, 2% ] [ from here to ], do you think you can -- best -- best case scenario, you can keep it flat.

Sebastian Song executive
#74

So keep it flat.

Mervin Song analyst
#75

I mean, the best case scenario, would it be flat? Or do you think it will still increase?

Sebastian Song executive
#76

No, I think, it will increase. It will increase. I think without giving too much, I -- the rules are quite clear. There is a threshold to how much deductions you can claim. So I think it's more likely than not the [ property ] tax will increase.

Mervin Song analyst
#77

Can I check what is the borrowing cost for the various JVs you have at this point in time? And how high could you go?

Sebastian Song executive
#78

Sorry, JVs meaning...

Mervin Song analyst
#79

Your [indiscernible] stacks in ORQ, MBFC.

Sebastian Song executive
#80

Fortunately, we are not able to provide that information, but we carried out a refinancing exercise this first half. The margins were very nice. So yes, so we're still getting very tight margins for our refinancing exercises regardless, whether it's at cap right level or associated company level.

Mervin Song analyst
#81

Is there more further refinancing to come for ORQ, MBFC, I mean, meaning that you reset everything to today's rate through or there's still some lower costs still to come through?

Sebastian Song executive
#82

We're done for this year. So we did CBD this year. ORQ will be due next year. So we will be working on that maybe later part of the year.

Mervin Song analyst
#83

But net-net, we still should see increases at the JV structure, those are foreign costs next year.

Sebastian Song executive
#84

Assuming interest rates stay this way. Will come down as fast as we would like them to be. They will probably be refinanced at higher rates than current.

Mervin Song analyst
#85

Okay. I know it's hard to guide for next year, but let's say we have 100 bps cut next year from the Fed, will we still see higher borrowing costs, or you can -- you maintain the current levels [ for Q4 ]?

Sebastian Song executive
#86

I will need to work myself. I don't have the information right now. Sorry.

Mervin Song analyst
#87

Okay. No worries. Yes, but you guys have done some in terms of [ big deal announcement ] from the level of rate cuts. Okay. Look forward to better results ahead.

LENG Tong Yan executive
#88

Thank you, Mervin. Donald, do you want to go ahead for questions. Donald [indiscernible].

Donald Chua analyst
#89

Yes. Can you hear me?

LENG Tong Yan executive
#90

Yes, we can hear you now.

Donald Chua analyst
#91

Okay. A couple of questions on Australia. Really, any reason why 8 Chifley cap rate is so much more -- is so much tighter than your 255 George of 75 bps.

Kuang Hsing Yeo executive
#92

Yes. I think -- sorry, I'll take this question. For 255 George, I mean, that was a market -- I guess, sort of a market transaction and things have -- as Wee Lih mentioned, kind of may have tightened since then. And also, 8 Chifley is also now fully 100% leased and is stable for at least the next 2, 3, 4 years. So there's not much leasing to be done. So I don't think there's much exposure to the market. I think the valuer probably took that into account also.

Donald Chua analyst
#93

Okay. Any risk of product expansion here from 8 Chifley or in fact, most of the other portfolios?

Kuang Hsing Yeo executive
#94

I guess there's always the risk because the state of the market in Australia is in flux. So with the RBA perhaps wanting to increase 25 basis points maybe not. I mean, the risk is always there. So -- but again, we can't quantify that risk. The valuers would even try. So as far as we know, it's the right cap rate to use for now.

Wee Lih Koh executive
#95

Yes. While the [ saving grace ] seems to be like we probably have invested right at the bottom of the market because recent transactions is -- indicate that the cap rate has tightened from where we invested in. So let's see how things go, right. I think Australia, again, for the prime and grade A office continues to have the demand. I mean, even, I'll say, 8 Chifley obviously is a newer vintage than 255 George. 255 George obviously have gone through extensive upgrades. So again, 255 George is just one transaction point, and let's see for more transaction before I think the valuers can extrapolate the trend to see really where the cap rate is.

Donald Chua analyst
#96

And then for your 2 Blue Street, your new tenant, what's our incentive? And how does it compare with this previous ones?

Sebastian Song executive
#97

Actually -- so incentives actually seem to be -- seem to be trending downwards. So I think for that particular tenant, we are quite happy with the result. It's in the probably in the [ mid-30s ]. Yes.

Donald Chua analyst
#98

And any time line for the remaining 23%?

Sebastian Song executive
#99

Well, we still have rent guarantee on the rest of the space until April of year after next. Yes. So -- so we're not rushing the process. We're going to get the right tenant. We've got income in place. So essentially, we have 100% leased buildings. So yes. I think we shouldn't try and rush this because getting the -- that building leased out with quality tenants is kind of our main focus.

Donald Chua analyst
#100

And maybe you mentioned that there's more than 1 asset in your portfolio that you give up for divestment, just like T Tower, would just being Australia, one in Singapore, right?

Wee Lih Koh executive
#101

Again, yes, I mean, we don't want to comment anything to it. But you meant in the past that, obviously, before my time, there's a possibility of divesting some partial stake of some of the assets, which I think the previous events done. So we want to draw any possibility, let's continue to see. I think right now, we were in good shape itself, let's say, we have done all refinancing, we wanted for this year. I think the banks continue to be supportive. So we definitely have an eye on the gearing over the long term, but we will see -- let's see, how the market plays itself. We definitely long-term-wise ready to bring down the gearing to below 40%.

Donald Chua analyst
#102

Sure. Okay. Last question for me, very quickly, what yours prevailing or the comp of debt at this point in time, if you go out to more [ 3 or 5 ]?

Sebastian Song executive
#103

Okay. So if we are to get a loan an Aussie dollar facility right now, it can be between -- the margin can be between 150 bps and 200 bps from an Australian bank. I think the Singaporean banks are the local banks are slightly kind you can probably...

Donald Chua analyst
#104

Sorry could you repeat again. What's the margin again for Australian bank?

Sebastian Song executive
#105

If you have to go out right now, the Aussie bank may offer a margin of about 150 bps to 200 bps. The low -- yes, the local banks slightly lower, think 120 bps to 150 bps margin.

Donald Chua analyst
#106

So no mix -- no real changes for the margin, say all-in probably closer to [ 6 ] at this point.

Sebastian Song executive
#107

All-in closer to [ 6 ] if we are to get a borrowing the [ 4.35, high 5s, mid to 5s ] if.

LENG Tong Yan executive
#108

Thanks, Donald. Derek from Morgan Stanley.

Wee Lih Koh executive
#109

Derek, go ahead. [indiscernible].

LENG Tong Yan executive
#110

Derek, you're on mute. Derek, can you hear us? We can't hear. Go head, [indiscernible]. I think Derek is finding some problems.

Unknown Analyst analyst
#111

Yes. I just have one question. With the revaluation exercise data, I'm sorry, I might have missed this. But does it mean that you might not want to do one later part of this year?

Wee Lih Koh executive
#112

No, no, I think the full year valuation is mandatory. In fact, with the media, I think we just did it for better transparency. And especially there is some movements in the Australian market, but we'll be doing a full year valuation in anyway.

LENG Tong Yan executive
#113

Yes. Derek, do you want to go ahead.

Jian Hua Chang analyst
#114

Hi. Can you hear me now?

LENG Tong Yan executive
#115

Yes, we can.

Jian Hua Chang analyst
#116

Sorry, some technical issues earlier. Yes. I just want to follow up on Rodney's comments on the second half reversions being flat to slight positive because I think some of your key tenant expiries and this year will include likes of BNP, and I would think that by backfilling those leases, you would probably see pretty healthy reversions possibly double digits. That's my question.

Kuang Hsing Yeo executive
#117

No. Actually, what I'm -- actually, I was answering the question of the market rent outlook for the second half of the year. So it was flat or slightly up, not reversions.

Jian Hua Chang analyst
#118

Sorry, reversions, yes. So on the 2024 expiries for BNP, is there any sense of how much they're likely to give up?

Kuang Hsing Yeo executive
#119

Due to tenant confidentiality reasons, right, we are unable to comment on something like this. The negotiations are not final yet. So we don't -- we can't comment on it also. Yes.

Wee Lih Koh executive
#120

Yes. Derek, if I may point you to Slide #14. There, we disclosed the average expiring rent. For 2024 is $10.77, right? So if you look at where we are -- the spot rent is or where we have signed average rent for the first half, there's a good, healthy reversion there.

Jian Hua Chang analyst
#121

Yes. So based on that, I guess, we should expect, of course, double-digit reversions for the second half?

Wee Lih Koh executive
#122

That's what we're aiming for as well.

LENG Tong Yan executive
#123

Thanks, Derek. Krishna, do you want to go ahead with your question?

Krishna Guha analyst
#124

Just a couple of quick questions. What is the physical occupancy of the offices in Singapore and Australia, if you can share the number? And just one general question just on the valuation. Has ESG sort of played any role in the valuation as yet?

Kuang Hsing Yeo executive
#125

Okay. So I'll take the first question, probably second one, too. So physical occupancy in Singapore, I think we're just back to normal. I mean, we already been back to normal kind of 80%, 85% physical occupancy in our buildings. I mean, everyone also comes to work actually almost every day. In Australia, it's actually gotten almost back to normal in Sydney and in Melbourne also. So they are quite close to maybe 70% plus 80%, as far as we know.

Krishna Guha analyst
#126

Okay. And on the ESG thing on valuation?

Kuang Hsing Yeo executive
#127

Play a role, I think it does play a role or what we do to our buildings in terms of energy savings, and it allows us to lower our utility costs as much as possible, aside from the increase in the utility rate. We're using actually less energy. So that would actually flow through to the operating expenses and higher kind of NPI number. So I think that there is a difference in our valuations, positive difference.

Wee Lih Koh executive
#128

Yes. And I think that's obviously on the expense side. I mean, well, in terms of revenue, let's say, we'll be targeting those Fortune 500 companies, and these companies will only move into ESG certified. All our buildings in Singapore are certified [indiscernible]. So that's why you see our rental is also on average higher than the [indiscernible] and CBD.

LENG Tong Yan executive
#129

Thank you. Thanks, Krishna. [ Xuan ] and Derek, you probably have -- still have your hands up. Do you have further questions? I think, yes, we don't have any more questions. Oh, Mervin.

Mervin Song analyst
#130

Yes. It's Mervin. Yes.

LENG Tong Yan executive
#131

Yes. Go ahead.

Mervin Song analyst
#132

Can we touch on the Melbourne market? I mean, the vacancy rate is quite heavily weighted and obviously, there's a lot of supply headwinds. Any guidance in terms of 8 Exhibition Street in terms of occupancy from here? Should we expect further slippages or you think you can fall around that 8%, 9%, yes.

Sebastian Song executive
#133

Yes. We definitely are in the midst of trying to lease up those remaining suites, the remaining 10-odd percent. So I think in terms of guidance, we were still going through quite a number of deals in terms of negotiations. So I guess, hopefully, in the next quarter, we hope to kind of report on the -- a little bit better.

Wee Lih Koh executive
#134

Yes. And it's safe to say, obviously, the East end or [ West ] end of the Melbourne CBD is doing much better than the North and the South line, and which you see continued people moving to a higher quality building on the [ inside of it ]. So not populated by government tenants.

Mervin Song analyst
#135

In terms of your Australian exposure, I mean, based on your commentary, you seem to be -- you have been more positive on the Sydney market. Is it time to perhaps sell Victoria Police Center, not the David Malcolm Justice Center, I mean, those are stable income, but maybe you want to sell those and reinvest it into Sydney or CBD [indiscernible]?

Sebastian Song executive
#136

Yes, we know your comments. Thanks, Mervin.

Mervin Song analyst
#137

Was there something you're considering, or I don't know?

Wee Lih Koh executive
#138

Again, I'd say, we're -- we're glad to put enough tag on any properties or consider. I think we're constantly looking at hopefully optimization, and we'll continue to do so. But again, we want to really go in moving and consider. So otherwise, we will compromise our negotiation position.

LENG Tong Yan executive
#139

Thank you. Thanks, Mervin. I don't think we have any more questions. So we'll come to the end of our briefing. So if you have any further question can contact me. Thank you. Thanks, everyone. Have a good day.

Wee Lih Koh executive
#140

Thank you.

Sebastian Song executive
#141

Okay. Thanks, everybody.

Kuang Hsing Yeo executive
#142

Thank you. Bye.

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