Sivers Semiconductors AB (publ) (SIVE) Earnings Call Transcript

Good morning, and welcome to this webinar, the first webinar ever for Sivers Semiconductors. That's our new name, formerly known as Sivers IMA. And this is the third quarter results. Today, we're going to focus somewhat on the large 5G order that we got in Q3 and also the strengthened cash position that the company has now as the best position ever in the company's history. So if we look at the summary on the third quarter, Q3 revenue came in at SEK 22 million, which is 8% below year-on-year. And that is mainly due, I would say, to COVID-19 and some delays in customers that are doing rollouts or trials and the trials are not progressing as quickly as we want them to in the wireless 5G part. When it comes to the Photonics piece, we're also seeing some sort of slower effect there, about 10% slower sales compared to last year. Some of that effect is also due to the pound-SEK, which has gone down about 4% since last year. Otherwise, the main thing on the quarter was a very large 5G CPE order I will tell you more about. We have also received more design wins during the quarter as we tell you about today, net we have actually 2 new ones in the quarter. And the second one -- a third one also coming in from Siemens Healthineers after the quarter end. We also got a Fortune 100 order from -- the first Fortune 100 after the quarter ended. And we did a SEK 200 million share issue, so the cash position is now at SEK 278 million. Looking in more detail into the quarter. It is a bit difficult to understand the numbers, and we tried really hard last time to explain to you all also that there will be a large effect by that the share price gone up and the social security fees has been affected as well as embedded derivatives. So therefore, it's hard to read and it looks much worse on the bottom line than it actually is. On the contrary, it's quite a positive bottom line compared to last year. So as I said before, minus 8% was the revenue came in on. If we look at the EBITDA, there was a hefty amount of provisions for social security fees, SEK 32 million. And EBITDA, if we adjust for that comes in at minus SEK 6.5 million, which is about SEK 9 million actually better than last year. So that is a great work from the team. Increased, I would say, gross margins savings, of course, due to that we don't travel and all those things. So that is a positive thing to see. And the green numbers is what you should look at, I would say, rather than the other numbers. Even more difficult is to understand the operating income, which is a very huge negative number, SEK 151 million. The same there that this is only connected to provisions and effects on the convertible bond that Ampleon now actually have also converted. So this thing will definitely disappear as well as this is more of a financial effect and no cash flow effect, nothing in that direction. So if we look at the actual operating income, we are ending up at about minus SEK 12 million compared to minus SEK 24 million last year, so we improved by about SEK 12 million on operating income. So from that perspective, also a better bottom line in actual numbers. If we look at the full year so far, in January-September, we can see the same here as before. We are minus 6% on revenues compared to last year and as well that's connected to the COVID and that we are not yet into the volume production that we are expecting will come near term. The same here, if we look at EBITDA, we should also look at the numbers without including the social security provisions. And also for the operating income, we should look at that without the revaluation of the convertible debentures. So with that, we ended the quarter actually with SEK 278 million, which is a very strong position and gives us a good position now to go into all the interesting things that will happen next year for the company. And again, here is an explanation of the derivatives and social security fees that I went through the last time. It's very important for people to understand that this is just sort of has no current effects and no future effect on cash flow. We can secure any social fees via also share options that has been approved by the AGM earlier and so forth. So just to be clear about that and if the share goes up and down, this will still have an effect on the social fees. And -- but now with the conversion of the Ampleon convertible, that is not going to have an effect on that in future anymore, and that will be transferring to the balance sheet instead. If we look at the segment reporting, even with this effect on the Wireless side, the Wireless side was actually growing almost 10% in the quarter, even if the numbers are not the largest numbers at this point. We are in a rollout of several smaller networks with the customer, and that was covered partly by the order we got in Q2 by ADTRAN. And for example, there was 1 network that went live yesterday in a small village in the U.K. So there is a couple of networks up and running. There is a lot of networks that want to do trials that has been moved a bit forward. On the Photonics side, we had a bit slower quarter, some effect as well on COVID, but in general, also a smaller effect by about 4% on the pound-SEK here. So we are coming in sort of expected, I would say, in these areas. We can also see still, North America is a strong part of this. This is still the Fortune 100 customers who are driving a lot of the sales within Photonics. And the sales within Wireless is currently mostly sort of in Europe in that sense and still smaller volumes in Asia. But as you've seen now with the new order in -- for a new design win, rather, in China with Siemens Healthineers, we are also expecting that we will grow our market share in Asia, of course. So if we look at the significant events, I talked about this before. I mean, we did some debt redemption related to operating credits in July, August. So we reduced that debt by about SEK 21 million. We also got a large 5G order in, which was sort of an unusual project in that sense that we also have the customer's customer involved directly and we could estimate the value of that project. And of course, the share issue made here now late September of SEK 200 million, and I've seen people asking why haven't we spent the money yet. I mean, we got the money in September so that's why we have such high cash still, and investments are going to start now after the discussions with our tier -- with Fortune 100 customers, for example. So I will come to that soon. So to explain about the SEK 490 million deal, it's a CPE deal with a New York-listed company. They are building CPEs for one of the Tier 1 operators in the U.S. It is a full contract from the beginning, supply agreement with everything included, including both -- and a repayment but also a forecast for the future, of course. And the customer has -- end customer in this sense. We are now embarking on R&D development and we've come quite far in that project and the plan is to have a chip first half next year all ready and then build modules based on that, and those modules should then start to roll out in 2023. So this is a new generation technology that will go into distribution, which is quite exciting. So the direct share issue, why did we do that from the beginning? So we are accelerating the organic and international expansion. One of the pieces is that we want to get closer to our customers in the U.S. now. We have a lot of sales in the U.S. and we expect more sales to come in, so a U.S. office is needed. Of course, very affected right now by the COVID. Of course, you don't take face-to-face meetings and so forth. They're very careful in Silicon Valley about that. So when we can put feet on the ground, we'll be very affected by that. We want to get more design wins in. We want to lean more forward and focus on partners and customers and win business and not always be careful and always be paid for every little thing we do, and that will hopefully then speed up our possibility to get more design wins over time. And of course, investment in production capacity, we are now nearing ramps. We are -- been selling smaller volumes in the thousands, but we are now ramping that up as well for the Wireless business. And also, we're going to build production for the big -- for an SEK 80 million solution going forward, and that's an investment. But also what is more important is even though we are in negotiations right now with the Fortune 100 customers about building the first pilot production lines, and that is, of course -- then we need to have a strong balance sheet to be able to do that negotiation in a good way and get to a good place in that. We don't want to be in their hands. So that has been the major part of this share issue. And of course, customer support and sales in general, we are now having a lot of customers in both areas and a bit more of them maybe in the 5G with 21 customers, and we need to handle them and make sure to help them to get to the market as well. So this was a fundamental, very important share issue that was done on only 4.4%, I think, of dilution, which was very good. So what has happened after Q3? Ampleon has called for the conversion. They now have the shares, which was issued already information about in 2017. And that has also strengthened the balance sheet now that, that loan is off the books. We also spent a lot of time on changing the name of the company, which is very important now when we go into this phase and becoming Sivers Semiconductors. And you might have seen the new web page, the new branding, as you see right now, the new logo and everything. I think the team has done a fantastic job to present that. And we are now sort of -- the branding and the web page are reflecting the company we are internally, I would say. Also, Photonics received a smaller order from the first Fortune 100 customer. But it's very important, all orders we get from them and constantly working together, having a great relationship with the Fortune 100 and it's going very well forward. We are confident that we will hopefully get that to the next phase. We also received a grant for a quantum atomic magnetometer clocks for our Photonics business. And then we also received a Chinese 5G order from Siemens Healthineers just last week, which is a very interesting project in a new area. So let's talk about the Q3 order from the Fortune 100 customer. So this order was sort of an add-on order to what we've been doing and things needs to happen, and that was a really good order in itself even if it was a bit smaller, but we expect more orders to come that are bigger, of course, than this as well. And what has started now between our Photonics team and this Fortune 100 is the negotiations then for what's called pilot production lines, where you start sort of the pilot production for the next step and to get into volume. And then those pilot lines then are, in the next step, multiplied. So you get multiple lines where you can produce higher volume. So that step is the first step we are looking to take and we are currently in negotiations how that's going to happen. So that's important. And here, you can see a little bit how the sort of 2 Fortune 100 customers are and have progressed over time. I mean, there are 3 steps sort of in winning a deal in the Photonics business like this. The first one is the research phase. It can take quite a long time and that's the sort of most risky phase. Can the research lead to product development or not? And when you pass that, you get into the next step, which could take 1 to 2 years as well, depending on it. When you do redesigning and you're making sure that the prototypes becomes working and fits into real product and the customer starts development of the software and everything around is a laser that we are building. And then in the last step is that we're getting to finalize production. When you start with the pilot lines, you start with pre-series production and then you get to volume ramp and volume phase. And right now -- we are just before, I would say, the pilot line stuff, and we want to sort of see that we can finalize those negotiations and get into the next step. Already now, we've had a total of pre-investments into that first project with the first Fortune 100 over the last sort of 2 years has been SEK 73.8 million, which is a lot for product development, which you can interpret that if you put that much money into something, you are quite willing to see some kind of product in the end and volumes and so forth. The other project is, however, in a more early phase. It's just a contract came in, in April and we are progressing. It seems like we can do what they want but that's still in the research phase, and there was SEK 7.5 million received on that project. So all in all, I have a very good feeling on where this is going right now, and we have derisked a lot of the risks that's been in the -- especially the first project, and we're moving in the right directions. If we look at the Siemens Healthineers, what kind of company and thing is this? I mean, this is the first design win, an order of test equipment and RF modules. Siemens Healthineers contract came in via our reseller in China. This is, of course, a very large company. They have 120 years of experience in this. They have almost 18,000 patents globally, 50,000 employees. They work in 17 countries -- 70. And they're a big supplier of a lot of different type of equipment: therapeutic imaging, laboratory, diagnostics, molecular medicine and so forth. So they have then decided to use our 60-gigahertz technology to supporting these different medical applications. And they haven't really told us yet exactly how they're going to use it and so forth. But we're very happy to be part of this and looking forward to take this to the next step during 2021. If we then look at the different design wins, this is a way of describing where we are currently with the different customers. And if we look at the coloring here, you have the orange one that are sort of getting into commercialization phase. You have the light orange ones that are in prototypes and have some ready hardware. And you have the white one in design wins. And now unfortunately, we also had a smaller one that in the light red here that actually we don't think it's going to get to a product so we are removing that from this. But in general, we can see here that we have a couple of larger customers now into serial production like ADTRAN to Wireless. Cambium is about to launch their product, and also their East European ODM is also about to launch, and I think they might have had a launch actually this week but there's nothing official yet on when that product will actually hit the market. And then we have Fujikura who also launched their product. But as I said before, we have an effect on COVID here, and we are -- there are 3 different things when it comes to how the customers buys and do things now during COVID. When it comes to R&D, they're willing to do R&D. They can do that, they can work from home and they can do all the things. When it comes to trials, if you are in a trial or something, they tend to do it. But if you haven't started or about to start, that is not always the highest priority for the customers. Therefore, we get into a phase where it could be that they are delaying. And the third phase, of course, if you have already rolled out and you've done the trials, then there is a big need for 5G equipment. So some of those things have happened for ADTRAN, for example. They have a few customers and they are rolling out there. And unfortunately, those customers so far is not any huge ones. There's like Tier 3 sizes and they're smaller towns in the U.K. and in Sweden and so forth. So it is not yet in a phase where we'll see sort of the larger volume. But we expect to see new customers coming in and larger customers having their trials and finalizing them so we can see, during 2021, more orders coming in. We also have a couple of other interesting here that, for example, AirVine, which is a small company but have a very cool technology that they are using. They just released their products and talking a lot about them, and it's a very interesting way of using our technology. They have had a lot of people being interesting what they're doing and so forth. And we're looking forward for their launch now in 2021. I think that they're saying that in July they will start with volumes. They already have hardware now in February that's going to go out in trials. Then the new other 2 design wins that we got this quarter is actually connected to fixed wireless access and they're partly connected to each other. I can't go into details, but I hope that we can share some more details with at least 1 of them maybe, if we're lucky, before end of the year. The other one we expect to share something after the new year and forward, if we can. But quite interesting project and they're going very quickly from design win into the next stage here, which is encouraging to see as well. Yes. If we look at those customers, I was talking about that we have got a bit further with like Cambium and ADTRAN, quite large Tier 2 customers. And you can read about them here and I've talked about them before, they're like $200 million-plus companies listed -- turnover, listed on NASDAQ, both of them. We have Blu Wireless that works with us as well. They have this technology for tract to train and transportation and so forth, which they are now rolling out. They have got some delays, I think, with -- since there is not much people on the trains, they have not rolled out too much so far, but we're hoping that will speed up soon. And then we have the Ampleon, of course, which we have a great partnership with. And we are still working on the technology that we are building together already in the first chip we did together with them is already in the Cambium solution. There's the second chip we have started is still in the prototype level, and we expect to try to get that into volume levels or ready for volume in next year. And then, of course, the branding. And sometimes it's difficult with some of the stuff, but let's see if you can see this new video about how we are rebranding the company. [Presentation]

Okay. So that was some of the branding that we're doing. Please look at our web page and other places for more information about that. If we look at the work in progress around the road to NASDAQ main market, we are -- we have done a lot of work already. As mentioned before, we have transferred our accounting standards to IFRS. And we've done that now for a year, which is very good and that is in place. We also started preaudit with auditors and we are sort of planning to finalize that before the end of the year. And of course, we are investing heavily into doing this audit and looking to the processes we have and make sure we follow everything. And of course, as everybody knows, there is some cost involved in this, of course, normally SEK 7 million, SEK 8 million in total to get listed on the main market. So that is something to understand also in the future that we are investing in. We also started the legal and tax due diligence. And we also, of course, always focus on business first. And the target is still that we want to be ready for a listing first half next year. But as always, the final approval is made by NASDAQ committee, so we cannot just say that we can be listed. They have to make that decision. So we never know where it will end up but that is our target still. So to summarize, Sivers Semiconductors' first 9 months. Overall, we have had a minus 6% year-on-year revenue. I would say the reason for not being a positive so far is that the COVID-19 have put -- hampering the development. At the same time, I would say, having almost the same as last year is actually quite well in these challenging times for many companies that has much bigger challenges. We're totaling now 21 design wins, and in general, we are building on more and more design wins. We have also the 2 Fortune 100s progressing really well and we're very happy with the progress. It takes time. We all have to have patience with that, but it will take time but we also are progressing well. And also ending the quarter with a fantastic cash position makes the situation feeling very good for the company. And that's why I'm saying that we're now entering the most exciting period, I would say, in this company's history. So that was all currently. And we're now going over to questions and I'm going to open them up.

"So in 3 to 5 years' time, which products are forecasted with higher sales?" We are not doing forecast. It's a very good question. But I've said before that I think that our plan is to grow both legs, both the Photonics and Wireless. So in a 3- to 5-year period, I think they will be pretty similar in sales if we succeeded in both parts. "Which manufacturer is the foundry for wireless?" Currently, the name we shared is a German company called IHT. We also have another company now with the 2 latest chipsets. But we haven't shared that officially, so I will not go out with that currently because we don't want to tell our competitors exactly what we're doing. Someone -- "What do you have a discussion with Scottish Enterprise?" Yes, I know that our team in Scotland are talking with Scottish Enterprise, and that will, of course, be in connection with building pilot lines and so forth in the future. "Is the Photonics acquisition paid for now? If not, when do you think it will be?" Yes. I mean we finalized that, I think, in 2018 already when they finalized the earn-out so that is paid for -- and it was paid for by shares. And in total, I think the cost was about SEK 180 million or something like that at that point. So that's done. "Why isn't there more of the actual owners on the direct share issue?" I'm trying to translate from Swedish to English and that's why it's difficult. So when we're doing a direct share issue, most of the time, you have to have qualified investors. There is a great example of that with family offices and so forth. But -- and our owners already -- the main owners are owning too much of the company and we don't want them to be above 25%. So institutional owners, that is what we are trying to reach and get long-term investors that could fund the company for the future. So that's why the smaller owners or ourselves are not allowed to be part of that. "Why is Keith Halsey presented on the Board of Directors on your homepage?" That's probably because he has not left the CST Board yet. That is some work we are doing there so he will not be part of the CST Board anymore. Someone's saying no sound. I hope that works. I haven't seen anything -- Robert, have you. I have 3 people saying no sound now. So can we get the --- let me see. Do you hear me, Robert? Okay. I don't know how much -- it seems to have been no sound for a while. I don't know when that actually disappeared. That was 10:26 so that might have been some time ago. Okay. Let's go on. It's going to be difficult to roll back and know exactly where we lost sound. So there's a question. "How does the interest from Swedish larger operators look for 5G technology?" Yes. The thing is that the Swedish and the European operators, in general, for licensed spectrum is still just working on the lower band sub-6 gigahertz, and the Swedish PTS have not been able to release any frequencies yet from the larger -- for the larger operators when it comes to millimeter wave. So I don't think the interest is high at all at this point. On the unlicensed band, I think there will be an increased interest as we go because that is already allowed, and there are operators using it, smaller operators in Sweden using it. "In the slides of our presentation, there was a logo from Huawei?" Yes, that logo should probably not have been there, and we don't have any design win with Huawei, which is not allowed to work with so I don't know how it ended up there. "Thanks for the presentation. You are saying negotiation with the first Fortune 100 right now about the pilot. Would we expect a deal or no deal before the year end or you would say?" I cannot go into that. We just need to know that the process with a multinational, very large company like this and specifically also in a pandemic is, of course, quite difficult to guesstimate. They have long processes. It has to go far up, and this kind of large investments is interesting to -- will be, of course, affected by COVID as well. But I would not be able to give you an answer on that right now. "How is the cooperation with NXP going?" Yes, we've got some development there and we've had a sort of internal demos now between the RF and the baseband. However, they're also working with a release right now for some other things with this. So we are expecting that we will restart that work now in December and keep on building and get the integration going. So as I said when we started that, I mean, it took us about 2 years to integrate and get fully working with integrated device technology modem and now we've been working about a year on this. So I don't think we should expect very quick results. But it's going forward. "How is the connection to the vehicle market?" We are not working too much to the vehicle market right now. We know that Fujikura is working with some Japanese car manufacturers. But in general, we have not ourselves worked too much for that. In transportation though, in general, we have customers like Blu Wireless and others working more connected to buses and trains and all of that. Same question. "How many products are you working on with the first Fortune 100?" We have officially mentioned that we have 2 different ones, then there are some flavors on that as well on the same type of development. So there is a couple of products in general, so it's a bit hard to answer when I can talk about the products. Same question about Swedish telecom operators. No. PTS have not released that. "Which are your competitors?" That's a very long question actually. It's divided into licensed, unlicensed 5G as well as different solutions within Photonics. So I don't think I can go deeply into that. I recommend that you look at the Capital Markets Day when we go into a bit more. In general, we have very few competitors in unlicensed 5G, a lot more in licensed 5G, and there are companies like NXP, Qualcomm, ADI and others. And then when it comes to Photonics, it's not so many competitors either in that specializing on silicon photonics type of things and that are freestanding sort of foundries that can do this. So it's a mix of things. "How long before your consumer application customer sells a product? Do you book the senior chipsets inside as revenue typically?" I mean, when it comes to consumer applications, so if we will start and negotiating pilot lines now, I think it will take some time before it ends up in a consumer application. And I cannot guess that because the customer hasn't told us anything, so it would be stupid of me to say anything. We will, of course, get revenue on each laser that's sold to every sensor, so that are paid sort of upfront before they are put into the devices. Competition question again. "What can you tell more about the cooperation with IDT?" Yes, it's going very well. I mean, IDT is involved together with us in, I would say, 90% of all 60 gigahertz projects. To mention a few, there's ADTRAN. We have the AirVine part and so forth. So we are working well together. We are keeping on working together on other exciting projects that I hope that we can share more about during next year. So that is a very good cooperation. "Optical communications or X-PON progress." Yes. When it comes to that, we still are at a sort of small Tier 3 customers, India and China. And China has gone down a bit as you've seen in overall. But we have not yet been able to get the XGS-PON and its larger design wins there actually, which is a bit of a disappointment. "You are talking about health-related customers. What do you think about sports-related wearables for measuring things on your body with lasers? Are there any kind of interest in that market?" Yes, of course. I mean, if you do that kind of lasers where you can use it for certain activities, of course, you can use that. And our Photonics business have that kind of lasers. That could be 1 area. And I cannot go into specifically what kind of lasers we're doing for the customers. But that could be 1 area you use these lasers. "I am a new shareholder. Can you let me know when is the plan to become EBITDA positive?" So thanks for the question but we are not doing forecasts, and therefore, I cannot share that with you right now. And the reason for we're not doing forecasts are that we are still in a situation where we don't have sort of a constant flow of orders, and we are sort of relying on product development and so forth. So it would be difficult to do good forecasting. Okay. Someone tells me that the video actually destroyed the sound. I can understand that and probably something that's affected the sound, I'm sorry for that. Sound is fine now. I got a lot of those. I need to -- okay. So it was only for the video, okay. So hopefully, the rest you heard that then. Okay, good. Now I have very many sound questions. So we have already talked about Ampleon and the base stations. That's the second project I mentioned. "When does it come a new owner list?" Yes, I think we are about to update our web page so I think that will come up. I recommend that you look at Morningstar instead right now. There is a list that you can see the owners. Yes, I have a lot of sound things here. I need to delete all of that. Yes, thanks for all the sound answers. It's probably hundreds of them here so I'll try to -- so have to delete them. Can you -- okay, probably deleted some others that I shouldn't as well. "Is there a possibility for Sivers to do 5G chip for mobile if this is interesting for the company?" I've talked about that sort of a couple of years ago. We are not focused on mobile for 5G right now. It is a sort of a different technology that you need to have lower power chipset. We are focused on more high power. But it's nothing that says that we can't get there in the future, and it's often a very much bigger investment to fight in that area and the competition is maybe even harder. So maybe we can get there with the right progression around the rest of the business that we are focusing right now, we can get there in the future maybe. I still have a lot of sound things. "How do you see that the Swedish PTS allowing Huawei back in the Swedish market?" Yes. I mean, I cannot answer for PTS here. I am -- for me, I would say, when it comes to the Swedish market for the licensed stuff, it's quite uninteresting. It's a small market and they are only using sub-6 gigahertz. And that is, for me, sort of 4.5G rather than 5G. When it comes to millimeter wave, which is used in other use cases, it's more interesting to look at the Swedish market for 57 to 71 gigahertz, for example. "What applications do you foresee being part of together with Ampleon? Which markets?" So the applications are still which we have done already with Cambium, for example. We have the CPE and base station there, a small cell rather maybe and base station. Macro cell sister plan for the other chip we're doing. "When do you expect going from pilot to volume?" As I said before, it's quite difficult to estimate that. We have not got the final numbers from the customer on that side. NXP question again. "How is the collaboration with PropTech going?" Yes, PropTech, as I said before, it's a quite small company. They are using our solution. I don't see that they have come very far in -- with their own base band. They are working with some companies but it's not like they're going to be the big solution for us. I think we're working rather much more, of course, with Blu Wireless and IDT on that side. "When it comes to unlicensed 60 gigahertz 5G, who are the direct competitors and who could you provide an idea how much market share potential is for Sivers?" So if we talk about the unlicensed 60 we only have 1 direct competitor that we see right now. There are a few smaller players that are trying to get in there but we have yet to see them anywhere. So it's Qualcomm that is the main competitor. I would say in connection with the market share, I think they're going to be the dominant player if they keep on investing in this, even if their solution, I think, is not as good as ours. But they are a big player in general that have good connections out there in the market. As before, I cannot really share market share because that would be sort of a forecast from my side. But I think that we are getting very good traction, and I would love to have a possibility to get into a couple of more places when it comes to winning business in the 60 gig. I think 60 gig is the area where we have absolutely best position and the earliest position, actually. The same questions. "Are they going according to plan with the partnership with Fujikura?" Yes, the partnership is going okay when it comes to the 60 gigahertz. On the 28 gigahertz, they are and have been using our chips for the CPE side, but they have also now their own focus as presented a year ago on doing their own chip on the base station side. And we have gone into a deeper collaboration, of course, with Ampleon on that side. So I can understand that they don't want to be sort of affected by that. But -- so that's the status right now. And they have a full product already and they're talking to customers and integrating but it's long processes. And I think they have been very affected by COVID as the latest we've heard. "Where is the pilot line constructed?" The plan is to construct it in close to -- or close to the facilities in Scotland. "Anything new about Pearson and their lawsuit?" No, but I've seen that there has been some discussions that they have like come out of it. But we're having very good discussion with a lot of their customers, so I'm not sure even if they get out of it, if they are going to be a viable competitor in the future. Right now, we are not counting them as a viable, and that's why I said Qualcomm before. "Huawei again. You said not allowed to have design wins with them. Why?" Yes. So in the aspect, if you look at the Chinese market, U.S. have disallowed shipping of any products to Huawei that are using U.S. technology to make the products. All companies in the world that make silicon chipsets are designing products using U.S. technology. And many of the foundries are using U.S. technology to produce chips. So therefore, you're not allowed to ship anything to Huawei at this point. I mean, we don't know, of course, if Biden, if he becomes the President instead of Trump, if that's going to change. And I think that change will have a positive effect on our possibilities to get into that market. "Is there any work going on in the track-to-train area in China?" Yes, it is. We have the customer in China that we took about a year ago. They are still developing products. I think they're affected time-wise by COVID. But otherwise, there are ongoing development, yes. "Do you think we'll see several entirely new markets from going forward, similar to the new Siemens use case?" Yes. I think there could be a lot of different verticals where, for example, the 60 gigahertz technology issues where we haven't been in before, and also 28 gigahertz. I mean, we're still not too much into, for example, Factory 4.0, Industry 4.0 or whatever you call it. I think that area, I mainly talk about those private networks and so forth, but I think we can do much more there, and we are talking to customers in those kind of areas. So yes. "How does it look with sales to the data centers?" Yes, we're still working on one of the larger Fortune 100 customers there. And we are making progress but it is very slow and has been quite slow over the years. But we're still hopeful that we'll get somewhere in the end with them. Same question again, in China. "What's gross margin profitability you're currently seeing in the volume production in Photonics? Do you expect gross margins to expand in their respective something going forward? Or why -- or will gross margins come down as a function of higher volumes?" So as we have said before, we have a target staying between 40% to 60% in gross margin. I think right now, when we look at the latest numbers, I think we were over 60% actually. But that is an early phase and a lot of prototype sales where you have higher margins. Longer term, of course, when volumes increase, customers expect lower price, and we also get lower price from our sub-suppliers. However, when really large volumes come, we go closer, I think, to 40% in general than the 60%. So that's our target at least to stay in between there. Okay. Time is running out. We have 5 minutes. "Do you -- are you affected by the U.S. restriction in China?" Yes, I just mentioned how that is. "Any cooperation with Gapwaves, their name and your RF -- your antenna and your RF devices." I don't know really. There has been some discussion. We worked with them before, and we have seen though that when you need to do vertical and horizontal beamsteering and beamforming, which is the all next-generation chipsets have, I'm not sure if that antenna for 5G is viable. But I know that there have been discussions about doing something but that is probably driven by them. "Concerning no forecast, I assume you must have done a business plan for your products. Can you disclose that?" Yes, of course, we do business plans but disclosing that would be giving a forecast. So no, we cannot. "Can you talk about the potential you see from applications related to marquee project, size and timing?" No, I cannot because it's very difficult to estimate that and that's very early research projects, unfortunately. "Do you expect future orders in the size of SEK 490 million?" I would say it's hard to say, of course, if you can -- we can get them when we can get those, and it also would be a forecast if I told you that. But in general, I would say, if you look at the overall market instead and saying that, that order was about 4% of the total CPE market and we want to be a player in that market, then you can make the wrong calculations on the possibilities, I would say. "Are we directly involved with any Tier 1 companies or any -- do we always approximate them by the, for example, Ampleon?" I mean, we are talking to Tier 1s directly, of course. In the Photonics, we already have that. If you talk 5G, we are directly involved with companies but we have yet to announce any design wins, orders in that sense. "What about patent and the protection of IPR?" I think that when it comes to that, we have always been more focused on know-how, but we are building a patent portfolio as well constantly and we have some patents. But it's know-how in both businesses which is the most important for us. "Will I be able to watch the Q&A afterwards?" No, sorry, we do not put up the Q&A. We want people to be here. Otherwise, there would not be any Q&A in a couple of quarters. Yes, I think we are -- yes, the same questions. "Can you say anything about the Wireless business in Sweden when it comes to [ MetroNet ]?" I mean, I know them a bit but I cannot talk for them. I don't want to go out with solutions what they're saying and so forth. That's a customer's customer then. "The prognosis for [indiscernible] market for the optical sensing, is it accurate or it's conservative?" I would say that a lot of the sensing applications we are doing right now is probably not in the [indiscernible] report because the [indiscernible] doesn't even know that they exist. So I would say it should be conservative. "How do you see the market maturing for licensed and unlicensed 5G when you look at competitors, Qualcomm, RX in the market? Are you getting invited to more tenders now?" In general, the tenders are similar coming in the whole time. The maturing of the millimeter wave market is constantly growing. And a specific unlicensed market is now maturing and that 2021 will be the year, I think, where that market is sort of getting to the next step. Okay. I have a lot of questions left here. Unfortunately, I cannot take all of them. I need to run to the next thing here, but I want to thank you all for listening in and I talk to you all next quarter. Thank you very much. Bye-bye.